Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[JMHO]

Rubin is very Makpid that things are run the way they like it. (Heard first hand from someone who had them as their Rav Hamachshir)
I think we can safely assume that Kehillos does not.

Is this fact based or an opinion?

[avromie7]

Agreed.
And they charge less because:
Most probably they do less.
So its less of a Hechsher...

This is motzi shem rah. It also begins to explain the crazy world of israeli hechsherim and the politics involved. If someone is cheaper or get too many new clients in the past few years, it must be because they're inferior. How can you say that without any factual evidence?

[imayid2]

This is motzi shem rah. It also begins to explain the crazy world of israeli hechsherim and the politics involved. If someone is cheaper or get too many new clients in the past few years, it must be because they're inferior. How can you say that without any factual evidence?

So Kehillos not being on par with badatz and Landau is motzei shem rah and politics?
 

[avromie7]

So Kehillos not being on par with badatz and Landau is motzei shem rah and politics?
 

That can be debated, but when it's based on them being cheaper or because they recently got a lot of new clients then it definitely is.

[EliJelly]

So Kehillos not being on par with badatz and Landau is motzei shem rah and politics?
 

Isn't עד אחד נאמן באיסורין basically placing all hechserim on the same level anyway, as far as the consumer is concerned?

[Darth1]

Rubin is very Makpid that things are run the way they like it. (Heard first hand from someone who had them as their Rav Hamachshir)
I think we can safely assume that Kehillos does not.

Is this fact based or an opinion?

I'm assuming what he means is that Rubin requires restaurants to only use their supplier (Rav Rubins son in law...) Which gives them a lot more control over the food coming in (and $$). Kehillos does not have a similar arrangement. Neither does anyone else afaik.

The only concrete thing I heard about Kehillos was a chashuva Rav asked to go see there shechita a couple of years ago (When more people deemed them on a top standard.) and they were happy to give him a guided tour. He tried again a couple times with in the past year and they are not allowing him into the shlachtous.

[avromie7]

I'm assuming what he means is that Rubin requires restaurants to only use their supplier (Rav Rubins son in law...) Which gives them a lot more control over the food coming in (and $$). Kehillos does not have a similar arrangement. Neither does anyone else afaik.

The only concrete thing I heard about Kehillos was a chashuva Rav asked to go see there shechita a couple of years ago (When more people deemed them on a top standard.) and they were happy to give him a guided tour. He tried again a couple times with in the past year and they are not allowing him into the shlachtous.

Wow, these rumors are based on some serious evidence.

[yfr bachur]

@Moshe Green
While you may mean well, when you post accusations that are at best unsubstansiated garbage (K is not reliable bec it took up lots of places that Rubin dropped), or baseless assumptions (Rubin runs a tight ship, we can assume that K does not) you hurt the point that you are trying to make. You also provide amo for those who say "its all politics"...

You may not know why suddenly K is picking up places, or Rubin is dropping them - but to jump from that to "must be K is a lesser hechsher" is just stupid.

For many years there was a general status quo that resturants in Charedi residential areas in JLM would close by a certain time. The Eida will not give a hechsher on places open later... (check out geula after 8pm!)
A certain area came to be an exception to this... attracting people from far and wide to come to purchase there - making lots of noise and attracting anshei dlo maali to hang out there.
After trying unsuccessfully to work with the stores directly - the local rabbanim worked with the hechsherim to get the hechsher removed from any store opened after the time (I belive it was 11:30pm).
K was then in expansion mode and picked up the stores that lost their hechsher... Does it say something about the hechsher? Yes. Does it say anything about the kashrus standards of the hechsher... NO.

[yfr bachur]

Not necessarily at all. Some local chasidish BP hechsherim are very good and far cheaper than OU simply because they're more local.

or not using kashrus as a way to fund a massive national orginisation...
Samething with the Eida.

The OU and EC are not in the "chesed to the tzibur" bussiness.
They both use the proceeds (profits) from the kashrus division to help fund other parts of their orgs.
Which is partialy why they are more expensive than taking another hechsher which is filling much smaller funding needs...

[Moshe Green]

@Moshe Green
While you may mean well, when you post accusations that are at best unsubstansiated garbage (K is not reliable bec it took up lots of places that Rubin dropped), or baseless assumptions (Rubin runs a tight ship, we can assume that K does not) you hurt the point that you are trying to make. You also provide amo for those who say "its all politics"...

You may not know why suddenly K is picking up places, or Rubin is dropping them - but to jump from that to "must be K is a lesser hechsher" is just stupid.

For many years there was a general status quo that resturants in Charedi residential areas in JLM would close by a certain time. The Eida will not give a hechsher on places open later... (check out geula after 8pm!)
A certain area came to be an exception to this... attracting people from far and wide to come to purchase there - making lots of noise and attracting anshei dlo maali to hang out there.
After trying unsuccessfully to work with the stores directly - the local rabbanim worked with the hechsherim to get the hechsher removed from any store opened after the time (I belive it was 11:30pm).
K was then in expansion mode and picked up the stores that lost their hechsher... Does it say something about the hechsher? Yes. Does it say anything about the kashrus standards of the hechsher... NO.

Perhaps you are referring to a different Moshe Green but i don't ever recall saying that Kehillos is a bad Hechsher. In fact, i actually eat food with a Kehillos Hechsher.

I did mention that they picked up many places very fast. That's not "unsubstantiated garbage", its a fact. This means that they probably have a lower standard then the top 4-5 Hechsheirim. That's all.
But please don't be naiive and say that the lower price is because they are "not political". Rubin is not political and doesn't use the income to push youth groups or for publications. It's just a higher level of Kasharus. That's all.

As an aside, as mentioned before, lets trust the experts. Rabbi Kuber is definitely not political. He's the most apolitical guy you'll get and he says that Kehillos has gone down.

[yfr bachur]

I remember Kehillos as a small little Hechsher and then BOOM! all the restaurants started taking it... it just seems fishy to me... If they had such high standards then they wouldn't be such a draw...

I understand that, but i've seen it in many places. Many new restaurants also went for Kehillos instead of Rubin...
And also, why did those places that lost Rubin not go for Landau, Sheiris, or Bedat"z? The answer is pretty obvious, the lower price of chicken/meat and the lower standards of required Kashrus.

Agreed.
And they charge less because:
Most probably they do less.
So its less of a Hechsher...

Kehillos is not local. It's a national Hechsher from Dan til Eilat.
A restaurateur wants mainly a Hechsher that will attract his clientele and also not drive him crazy.
Rubin is very Makpid that things are run the way they like it. (Heard first hand from someone who had them as their Rav Hamachshir)
I think we can safely assume that Kehillos does not.

Your words, not mine.

It's your unsubstantiated assumption that rapid growth = lesser standards, when much of that growth can easly be attributed to other factofrs.

[avromie7]

Why are some people who claim to be so makpid on kashrus so careless with LH?

Perhaps you are referring to a different Moshe Green but i don't ever recall saying that Kehillos is a bad Hechsher. In fact, i actually eat food with a Kehillos Hechsher.

I did mention that they picked up many places very fast. That's not "unsubstantiated garbage", its a fact. This means that they probably have a lower standard then the top 4-5 Hechsheirim. That's all.

Even insinuating there is a connection between the number of new clients and the quality of the hechsher is straight up motzi shem rah. Additionally, relative quality is irrelevant. Why are you weighing one hechsher against another?

But please don't be naiive and say that  lower price is because they are "not political". Rubin is not political and doesn't use the income to push youth groups or for publications. It's just a higher level of Kasharus. That's all.

Again motzi shem rah.

As an aside, as mentioned before, lets trust the experts. Rabbi Kuber is definitely not political. He's the most apolitical guy you'll get and he says that Kehillos has gone down.

Did you hear it from him, or are you just repeating the word on the street. If the latter, this is also LH.

[imayid2]

Additionally, relative quality is irrelevant. Why are you weighing one hechsher against another?

To know and understand the pros and cons of a specific hechsher and be an educated kosher consumer, it’s helpful to compare and contrast how hechsher x operates and what their policies are vis a vis hechsher y.

[imayid2]

Even insinuating there is a connection between the number of new clients and the quality of the hechsher is straight up motzi shem rah.

No it is not. Establishments have no reason to opt for a stricter standard barring demand, and if a specific hechsher not known to be on the top tier is getting a large number of new clients, it is reasonable to suspect a lower standard as causation. That does not mean it’s a “bad” hechsher, just less onerous on the establishment owners.

As pointed out this isn’t necessarily מוכרח, as there can be standards unrelated to Kashrus that are lower, as well as pricing considerations.

[avromie7]

No it is not. Establishments have no reason to opt for a stricter standard barring demand, and if a specific hechsher not known to be on the top tier is getting a large number of new clients, it is reasonable to suspect a lower standard as causation. That does not mean it’s a “bad” hechsher, just less onerous on the establishment owners.

As pointed out this isn’t necessarily מוכרח, as there can be standards unrelated to Kashrus that are lower, as well as pricing considerations.

That's conjecture. Even if you're allowed to think it to yourself, how can you start rumors based on it?

[imayid2]

That's conjecture. Even if you're allowed to think it to yourself, how can you start rumors based on it?

What rumor is being started?

[avromie7]

What rumor is being started?

The claim that Kehillos is not such a good hechsher

[imayid2]

The claim that Kehillos is not such a good hechsher

The List already says that, no?

[aygart]

To know and understand the pros and cons of a specific hechsher and be an educated kosher consumer, it’s helpful to compare and contrast how hechsher x operates and what their policies are vis a vis hechsher y.

Correct but what those important differences were has not been forthcoming. It was only a vague statement that their standards must be lower in some unknown way.

[aygart]

The List already says that, no?

Is this based on rapid growth? If yes then it is worthless.