Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[imayid2]

do we make an assumption that the animal is trief if it looks healthy to us? can we see it is trief while it is alive?

Technically its possible through x-ray and the like, and no when dealing wuth 1 animal we would assume its from the majority of animals which aren't treif. But the point is that we are dealing with farms with thousands of animals, if 20/100 cows are treif in general, its a statistic impossibility that there is less than 2% of חלב טריפה mixed into the milk.

[Ver hut gazugt]

Technically its possible through x-ray and the like, and no when dealing wuth 1 animal we would assume its from the majority of animals which aren't treif. But the point is that we are dealing with farms with thousands of animals, if 20/100 cows are treif in general, its a statistic impossibility that there is less than 2% of חלב טריפה mixed into the milk.

is there not a chazaka that a healthy cow is just that?


Is their a makar to the idea that we need to check if a herd has treifus before milking other cows from the herd?

[imayid2]

Is their a makar to the idea that we need to check if a herd has treifus before milking other cows from the herd?

We do not need to check. We know, בידיעה ברורה, that there are treifos in this herd. You aren’t milking “other” cows, all the cows are milked and the milk is all mixed together.

[LongTimeLurker]

Displaced Abomasum. (Abomasum=קיבה).
More commonly, LDA, left displaced Abomasum.
The abomasum should be on the bottom of the abdomen, but can become filled with gas and rise to the top of the abdomen (the animals back), when it is said to be ‘displaced’. The abomasum is more likely to be displaced to the left (LDA) than the right (RDA).

I know this is Kashrut thread, but I have watched several videos of cows being saved just by puncturing them to let the gas out and I think it's such a weird procedure. As the kids say it's "satisfying"

[jye]

FWIU to be a problem it needs to be a statistical certainty that there are insects in there. Which items prepared in a yeshiva kitchen that are מיעוט שאינו מצוי that would certainly have insects when prepared in the kitchen? Also depends on how little אינו מצוי is.

Many yeshivos, schools, some catering halls, etc are cooking for thousands and have giant vats. Any item that has a minute but steady bug presence, be it cholent beans or barley, green beans, rice, etc. should be off limits even if the level is 1 bug per 500 portion sizes. I know of no yeshiva, school, or chasunah hall that pays any attention to the particulars of the aino matzui status in the kitchen. Does Rav Schachter refrain from eating at the above as well?

[imayid2]

Many yeshivos, schools, some catering halls, etc are cooking for thousands and have giant vats. Any item that has a minute but steady bug presence, be it cholent beans or barley, green beans, rice, etc. should be off limits even if the level is 1 bug per 500 portion sizes. I know of no yeshiva, school, or chasunah hall that pays any attention to the particulars of the aino matzui status in the kitchen. Does Rav Schachter refrain from eating at the above as well?

Rabbi Shachter was speaking about milk, which every cup is a mixture from all the animals. It can be argued that your case isn’t a problem at all, because the whole din there is that once you found 3 we assume there are more, but if you didn’t actually find it rather calculated it based on statistics, then why would you assume it’s more than the overall average, and therefore since it’s eino matzoy there wouldn’t be an issue for the people eating it, as they’d be able to assume their portion is non problematic.

It’s more of a question on Rav Elyashiv. He’d answer that he was talking about something that was מיעוט מצוי and that’s why it’s assumed muchzak in large amounts. When it’s eino matzuy at all it isn’t something you need to take into account since anyway the portions are completely non problematic.

[aygart]

But not clearly shown to be cases of statistical certainty

Why not? What changed?

[imayid2]

Why not? What changed?

The amount of cows being milked at once

[jye]

Rabbi Shachter was speaking about milk, which every cup is a mixture from all the animals. It can be argued that your case isn’t a problem at all, because the whole din there is that once you found 3 we assume there are more, but if you didn’t actually find it rather calculated it based on statistics, then why would you assume it’s more than the overall average, and therefore since it’s eino matzoy there wouldn’t be an issue for the people eating it, as they’d be able to assume their portion is non problematic.

It’s more of a question on Rav Elyashiv. He’d answer that he was talking about something that was מיעוט מצוי and that’s why it’s assumed muchzak in large amounts. When it’s eino matzuy at all it isn’t something you need to take into account since anyway the portions are completely non problematic.

I’m not asking about eating it, I’m asking that as soon as the yeshiva cook puts it all into the vat he should have to discard it since statistically it is a taaruvos with a vadai בריה

[aygart]

The amount of cows being milked at once

What is the threshold? When did it hit that threshold?

[imayid2]

I’m not asking about eating it, I’m asking that as soon as the yeshiva cook puts it all into the vat he should have to discard it since statistically it is a taaruvos with a vadai בריה

And when companies sample check a tremendous amount of produce in a greenhouse or a truck and decide the infestation prevalence is below miut matzuy, why don’t we say that 3 insects makes the whole thing muchzak?

[imayid2]

What is the threshold? When did it hit that threshold?

Will try to post the numbers of current dairy farms later, in the past it was no where close. I don’t know the exact threshold, but current numbers are way over any threshold

[aygart]

Will try to post the numbers of current dairy farms later, in the past it was no where close. I don’t know the exact threshold, but current numbers are way over any threshold

So

The amount of cows being milked at once

Is a

A distinction without a difference.

?

[imayid2]

SoIs a?

Assumed you were talking about current numbers

[jye]

And when companies sample check a tremendous amount of produce in a greenhouse or a truck and decide the infestation prevalence is below miut matzuy, why don’t we say that 3 insects makes the whole thing muchzak?

Because it is clear from the מרש״ל and numerous other achronim that ג תולעים is a not a YEDIAH that there is another בריה in this batch or pot, it is merely a siman that this batch is different than the general product in the velt, and there is some סיבה that caused it to be muchzak bitolaim. In the words of the Chazon ish אבל אם נמצאו ג' הוחזק שכל הפירות באילן זה או בערוגה זו נלקו, וחשיב כרוב המצוי שהן מתולעות. In fact,  if it is clear that the סיבה is מעלמא נפלו because the product is וודאי נקי we would disregard the ג. Similarly if it is clear that the ג shows us it is a miut hamatzui that is all we would be machzik it to be. Likewise, in a huge vat where ג conforms to known expectations of the miut sheeino matzui of this product, finding ג would change nothing. The מקור חיים in הלכות פסח says this even more clearly:
דלא אמרינן חזקת ג"פ כי אם בדאיכא דבר הגורם דמסתבר שיהיה כך, והיקש השכל מחייבהו שיהיה כך

However if we were to assur milk based on statistics as per your argument above, that is a whole different story. That means statistics are providing a ידיעה of what is here, and if that were the case, the YEDIAH that there is a בריה in this vat should assur the whole vat.

[imayid2]

Because it is clear from the מרש״ל and numerous other achronim that ג תולעים is a not a YEDIAH that there is another בריה in this batch or pot, it is merely a siman that this batch is different than the general product in the velt, and there is some סיבה that caused it to be muchzak bitolaim. In the words of the Chazon ish אבל אם נמצאו ג' הוחזק שכל הפירות באילן זה או בערוגה זו נלקו, וחשיב כרוב המצוי שהן מתולעות. In fact,  if it is clear that the סיבה is מעלמא נפלו because the product is וודאי נקי we would disregard the ג. Similarly if it is clear that the ג shows us it is a miut hamatzui that is all we would be machzik it to be. Likewise, in a huge vat where ג conforms to known expectations of the miut sheeino matzui of this product, finding ג would change nothing. The מקור חיים in הלכות פסח says this even more clearly:
דלא אמרינן חזקת ג"פ כי אם בדאיכא דבר הגורם דמסתבר שיהיה כך, והיקש השכל מחייבהו שיהיה כך

However if we were to assur milk based on statistics as per your argument above, that is a whole different story. That means statistics are providing a ידיעה of what is here, and if that were the case, the YEDIAH that there is a בריה in this vat should assur the whole vat.

I like the way you explained this.

Interestingly, Rav Elyashiv specifically pointed to the din of muchzak, and not to the yediya that there is for sure a berya inside.

[imayid2]

Will try to post the numbers of current dairy farms later, in the past it was no where close. I don’t know the exact threshold, but current numbers are way over any threshold

(“Animal Products” by R. Dovid Cohen)

[imayid2]

I’m not asking about eating it, I’m asking that as soon as the yeshiva cook puts it all into the vat he should have to discard it since statistically it is a taaruvos with a vadai בריה

I do not know the answer to this. I assume there is less hard data to work with when trying to claim a statistical certainty on a certain type of generally clean produce which can be affected by numerous factors. Anyways, perhaps the osrim would in fact say it’s problematic in certain cases. Thankfully it’s permitted for the consumer regardless.

Either way, an explanation is still necessary why Halacha should ignore hard reality.

[yelped]

Either way, an explanation is still necessary why Halacha should ignore hard reality.

Halacha makes the reality. Did you ever learn Hilchos Treyfus?

[imayid2]

רב יעקב עדס