Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[imayid2]

Halacha makes the reality. Did you ever learn Hilchos Treyfus?

No, it doesn’t.

The Rishonim and achronim struggle to understand treifos. The Rambam says it’s was נקבע the way it was בזמן המשנה even though the reality today is otherwise.

[chessman1]

I do not know the answer to this. I assume there is less hard data to work with when trying to claim a statistical certainty on a certain type of generally clean produce which can be affected by numerous factors. Anyways, perhaps the osrim would in fact say it’s problematic in certain cases. Thankfully it’s permitted for the consumer regardless.

Either way, an explanation is still necessary why Halacha should ignore hard reality.

This analysis doesn't really account for a couple of potential statistical issues:

1. The analysis assumes that the 1000 cows being milked are a representative sample. Even if there are 10% of treifos across the whole population, that doesn't necessarily mean that a given non-representative sample has the same characteristics. To use an example from further up the thread, let's say a farm has a cow population much younger than average (and younger cows have a lower treifa rate). That changes the calculation significatnly.

2. The analysis assumes that the occurrence of a treifa in each individual cow is an independent event of the same probability under all conditions. That seems to overlook that conditions at a given farm or dairy facility might lead to fewer treifos because the cows are healthier than average.

3. Even if the average incidence of treifos across all cows is 10%, the analysis doesn't consider whether there is a difference in milk production between a treifa and a non-treifa. If a treifa were to produce less milk (I assume hashgachos may have done such an assessment), that changes the bitul b'shishim analysis even if 10% of the cows producing the milk were treifos because the total milk produced by the treifos is not necessarily proportionate to their total number.
 

[EliJelly]

Halacha makes the reality. Did you ever learn Hilchos Treyfus?

And Rav Schachter L'shitosei is of the opinion that science trumps halacha, now his unusual chumra all makes sense...

(Ducks and runs...)

[imayid2]

This analysis doesn't really account for a couple of potential statistical issues:

1. The analysis assumes that the 1000 cows being milked are a representative sample. Even if there are 10% of treifos across the whole population, that doesn't necessarily mean that a given non-representative sample has the same characteristics. To use an example from further up the thread, let's say a farm has a cow population much younger than average (and younger cows have a lower treifa rate). That changes the calculation significatnly.

2. The analysis assumes that the occurrence of a treifa in each individual cow is an independent event of the same probability under all conditions. That seems to overlook that conditions at a given farm or dairy facility might lead to fewer treifos because the cows are healthier than average.

3. Even if the average incidence of treifos across all cows is 10%, the analysis doesn't consider whether there is a difference in milk production between a treifa and a non-treifa. If a treifa were to produce less milk (I assume hashgachos may have done such an assessment), that changes the bitul b'shishim analysis even if 10% of the cows producing the milk were treifos because the total milk produced by the treifos is not necessarily proportionate to their total number.

1-2: It is well established that all cows that age have a high rate of treifos. 10% is being generous. Why would you be able to assume that for some reason your milk is different?
3:cannot imagine this being true.

[Chuchum Ainer]

No, it doesn’t.

The Rishonim and achronim struggle to understand treifos. The Rambam says it’s was נקבע the way it was בזמן המשנה even though the reality today is otherwise.

To me it sounds like the Rambam you are quoting says that Halacha is koveah. which can also be referred to as "makes the reality."

Az m'redt shoin, looking up that Rambam, it's lichorah relevant to this whole discussion

יב
ואין להוסיף על טריפות אלו כלל, שכל שאירע לבהמה או לחיה או לעוף חוץ מאלו שמנו חכמי דורות הראשונים והסכימו עליהן בבתי דיני ישראל אפשר שתחיה, ואפילו נודע לנו מדרך הרפואה שאין סופה לחיות.
יג
וכן אלו שמנו ואמרו שהן טריפה אף על פי שיראה בדרכי הרפואה שבידינו שמקצתן אינן ממיתין ואפשר שתחיה מהן אין לך אלא מה שמנו חכמים שנאמר על פי התורה אשר יורוך.

[Chuchum Ainer]

The Rishonim and achronim struggle to understand treifos.

Did those Rishonim and Achronim drink milk?

[imayid2]

To me it sounds like the Rambam you are quoting says that Halacha is koveah. which can also be referred to as "makes the reality."

Az m'redt shoin, looking up that Rambam, it's lichorah relevant to this whole discussion

יב
ואין להוסיף על טריפות אלו כלל, שכל שאירע לבהמה או לחיה או לעוף חוץ מאלו שמנו חכמי דורות הראשונים והסכימו עליהן בבתי דיני ישראל אפשר שתחיה, ואפילו נודע לנו מדרך הרפואה שאין סופה לחיות.
יג
וכן אלו שמנו ואמרו שהן טריפה אף על פי שיראה בדרכי הרפואה שבידינו שמקצתן אינן ממיתין ואפשר שתחיה מהן אין לך אלא מה שמנו חכמים שנאמר על פי התורה אשר יורוך.

Not at all. The would be the opinion of the Rashba, who insists we must ignore reality. The Rambam is saying the the הלכה למשה מסיני was for the treifos of that era.

As explained by the חזון איש (and Rav Moshe)

[imayid2]

Did those Rishonim and Achronim drink milk?

Why wouldn’t they?

[aygart]

Why wouldn’t they?

According to your reasoning they shouldn't from anyone mixing milk from cows together.

[jye]

According to your reasoning they shouldn't from anyone mixing milk from cows together.

Only in a number great enough to create a statistical metzius

[aygart]

Only in a number great enough to create a statistical metzius

Something he has studiously avoiding defining. Based on the numbers he threw out that number should be very low, but the numbers have been pretty vague.

[yelped]

Not at all. The would be the opinion of the Rashba, who insists we must ignore reality. The Rambam is saying the the הלכה למשה מסיני was for the treifos of that era.

As explained by the חזון איש (and Rav Moshe)

Skimmed through it quickly and missed the part where he says what you said he says.

[imayid2]

Something he has studiously avoiding defining. Based on the numbers he threw out that number should be very low, but the numbers have been pretty vague.

You define it and prove they drank it.

[aygart]

You define it and prove they drank it.

I had a feeling you would come back with this garbage.

[imayid2]

Skimmed through it quickly and missed the part where he says what you said he says.

Dunno, does this help?

[ari3]

Suggestion: Split this thread into two. One that discusses hechsherim and kashrus info, and another that discusses halachic topics related to kashrus. If one is looking for kashrus info the halachic discussions really clog the thread.

[Alexsei]

Suggestion: Split this thread into two. One that discusses hechsherim and kashrus info, and another that discusses halachic topics related to kashrus. If one is looking for kashrus info the halachic discussions really clog the thread.

Couldn't agree more.
Mods usually end up splitting the thread anyways (happened several times)

@Dan

[imayid2]

Suggestion: Split this thread into two. One that discusses hechsherim and kashrus info, and another that discusses halachic topics related to kashrus. If one is looking for kashrus info the halachic discussions really clog the thread.

This thread has hundreds of pages, you will need to use the search bar anyway.

[yelped]

Dunno, does this help?

So I didn't miss it, but it doesn't say what you said it says.

[imayid2]

So I didn't miss it, but it doesn't say what you said it says.

To me it seems I quoted it accurately. You are welcome to point out the difference if you think otherwise.