Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[shulem92]

Chazaka cannot deny reality. We absolutely do know with certainty that there is vadai treifos there and it’s proven to be so. We have as big of a אנן סהדי that there ever was. It would be a neis like יציאת מצרים otherwise. This is just the facts.

If someone is mekadesh a woman Al tnai that there aren’t treifos there would we be חושש לקדושין? Absolutely not. There is simply no chance that there aren’t treifos there.

unless you X-ray the cows you have no way of proving to me that the cows are treifos TODAY… based on assumptions you may assume that the cows are treif but chazaka tells us otherwise.
We might be choshesh for kiddushin, but show me a source that it is a vadai kidushin to the extent that if she’s mezane we will kill the other man!

[imayid2]

unless you X-ray the cows you have no way of proving to me that the cows are treifos TODAY… based on assumptions you may assume that the cows are treif but chazaka tells us otherwise.
We might be choshesh for kiddushin, but show me a source that it is a vadai kidushin to the extent that if she’s mezane we will kill the other man!

Yes we can prove it, based on the percentage of treifos we find in similar animals which we have no right to assume these animals are immune from.

You have the kiddushin example backwards.

[imayid2]

Recalibrate meaning do we say the issur was already נתהפך להיתר and now it’s permitted to even eat at once (at least according to the Rosh).

Honestly not sure about this at all. Maybes it does. IDK. Would appreciate an explicit M”M on this.

Seems to be a popular shiur topic

This fellow tries to make the case that כל דפריש achieves bittul as well.
Rabbi Motti Neuburger
Is Our Milk Kosher?
Audio
https://mytat.me/a146325
@ 33:00

Very skeptical about this. Either way should be an issue בב״א according to the Rashba.

[shulem92]

Yes we can prove it, based on the percentage of treifos we find in similar animals which we have no right to assume these animals are immune from.

You have the kiddushin example backwards.

how can you prove it? You seem to be ignoring the musag of chazaka. Is that intentional? Point being as was mentioned up thread, even if you show me that 80% of animals Shechted are treif that doesn’t prove to us that they are treif today, as chazaka teaches us that they only acquire those treifos at the last possible moment.
All your statistics only prove to us, that, at the time of slaughter, they have this percentage…
I intentionally flipped the kidushin case to bring out a point

[chessman1]

Yes we can prove it, based on the percentage of treifos we find in similar animals which we have no right to assume these animals are immune from.

You have the kiddushin example backwards.

But using the statistics like this doesn't work to make a vadai.

The calculations assume a random sample of cows in the herd and that the likelihood of a treifa in each one is independent from the likelihood of treifos in all the others.  But that's not quite right.

As an illustration, imagine you have a group of 100 people in the US. Based on statistics of the whole US population, a random sample would be expected to be about 50 men and 50 women. About 2 of them would be Jewish. Does that mean that every time you have a group of 100 people you can assume 50 are men and 50 are women, two of whom are Jewish? Of course not.

1) Even random samples can have outliers.

2) Most groups aren't random samples of the population and there are other factors increasing or decreasing the likelihood that the population will share characteristics of a random person in the US.

If you walk into a shul, you'd expect the vast majority of the people there to be Jewish. And if it's the ezras noshim on shabbos morning, you'd expect the vast majority to be women. That's because these groups are not random samples of the US population. And in the ezras noshim scenario, it's not even a random sample of Jewish people.

This was, I think, part of the point @moko was making about cows. The cows being milked do not have the same rate of treifos as cows being shechted because the milk cows are younger and healthier. So the shechted cows likely have more treifos than a stam random cow. Similarly, even the milk cows might have a below average rate of treifos because of the conditions they live in.

[shulem92]

See hereRav Asher Wiess

Here’s the end of R’ Asher Weiss…
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=62060&pgnum=1

[imayid2]

But using the statistics like this doesn't work to make a vadai.

The calculations assume a random sample of cows in the herd and that the likelihood of a treifa in each one is independent from the likelihood of treifos in all the others.  But that's not quite right.

As an illustration, imagine you have a group of 100 people in the US. Based on statistics of the whole US population, a random sample would be expected to be about 50 men and 50 women. About 2 of them would be Jewish. Does that mean that every time you have a group of 100 people you can assume 50 are men and 50 are women, two of whom are Jewish? Of course not.

1) Even random samples can have outliers.

2) Most groups aren't random samples of the population and there are other factors increasing or decreasing the likelihood that the population will share characteristics of a random person in the US.

If you walk into a shul, you'd expect the vast majority of the people there to be Jewish. And if it's the ezras noshim on shabbos morning, you'd expect the vast majority to be women. That's because these groups are not random samples of the US population. And in the ezras noshim scenario, it's not even a random sample of Jewish people.

This was, I think, part of the point @moko was making about cows. The cows being milked do not have the same rate of treifos as cows being shechted because the milk cows are younger and healthier. So the shechted cows likely have more treifos than a stam random cow. Similarly, even the milk cows might have a below average rate of treifos because of the conditions they live in.

Yes, it does work to make a vadai. This isn’t a random sample calculation, it’s consistent results of years and years of shechting.

Milk cows have more treifos than regular cows, obviously something about their conditions lead to that. So the opposite is true.

how can you prove it? You seem to be ignoring the musag of chazaka. Is that intentional? Point being as was mentioned up thread, even if you show me that 80% of animals Shechted are treif that doesn’t prove to us that they are treif today, as chazaka teaches us that they only acquire those treifos at the last possible moment.
All your statistics only prove to us, that, at the time of slaughter, they have this percentage…

You can’t prove a specific one, but you can prove that there is treifos here somewhere. This is simply reality, chazaka cannot and does not deny reality. I’ve pretty much exhausted this point so I think this will be my final thought on that unless something new comes up.

[chessman1]

Yes, it does work to make a vadai. This isn’t a random sample calculation, it’s consistent results of years and years of shechting.

Milk cows have more treifos than regular cows, obviously something about their conditions lead to that. So the opposite is true.

But any particular group (i.e. sample) of milk cows doesn't necessarily have the same characteristics of those cows that have been shechted over the years. That's not a vadai.

[imayid2]

But any particular group (i.e. sample) of milk cows doesn't necessarily have the same characteristics of those cows that have been shechted over the years. That's not a vadai.

You have zero basis to allege that they are better than other cows, especially if we see that they are worse when shechted.

Would they not require בדיקת הריאה? Of course they do. Because we know a certain amount are treifos. And therefore when a large amount is mixed you are guaranteed treifos. Vadai. 

[shulem92]

Yes, it does work to make a vadai. This isn’t a random sample calculation, it’s consistent results of years and years of shechting.

Milk cows have more treifos than regular cows, obviously something about their conditions lead to that. So the opposite is true.You can’t prove a specific one, but you can prove that there is treifos here somewhere. This is simply reality, chazaka cannot and does not deny reality. I’ve pretty much exhausted this point so I think this will be my final thought on that unless something new comes up.

how are you proving that today there is a treifa? Are you ignoring the whole siman 81 that milk is muttar literally until 3 days before shechita on a nimtza treifa?

[imayid2]

how are you proving that today there is a treifa?

The same way I can prove to you that if you flip a coin 10,00 times today they won’t all land on heads. That is the way Hashem created this world.

Are you ignoring the whole siman 81 that milk is muttar literally until 3 days before shechita on a nimtza treifa?

No

[shulem92]

The same way I can prove to you that if you flip a coin 10,00 times today they won’t all land on heads. That is the way Hashem created this world.
No

So if I have 10000 coins on the table that are all on tails, you are right that when I flip them there will be half that land on heads but right now are there any on heads? No. That in my opinion is an excellent mashal to chazaka.
How are you reconciling your “problem” with siman 81?
If I shecht some cows from the herd within 3 days then I can hear a potential problem, but we arent

[imayid2]

So if I have 10000 coins on the table that are all on tails, you are right that when I flip them there will be half that land on heads but right now are there any on heads? No. That in my opinion is an excellent mashal to chazaka.

Your analogy is off. When we have 10,000 cows they are not all tails up.

[shulem92]

Your analogy is off. When we have 10,000 cows they are not all tails up.

sure they are. Chazaka tells me that not one of them is treif today. Unless you see signs of treifa externally for example DA

[aygart]

How are you reconciling your “problem” with siman 81?

Meanwhile he hasn't.

[imayid2]

sure they are. Chazaka tells me that not one of them is treif today. Unless you see signs of treifa externally for example DA

No, it doesn’t. The chazaka is built on a rov, chazal said rov are kasher, not all.

I’ve pretty much exhausted this point so I think this will be my final thought on that unless something new comes up.

[imayid2]

Meanwhile he hasn't.

Again, you think that at no point does a remote possibility turn into an impossibility in Halacha? You can be mechalel Shabbos for a .0000000000000000001 chance of פיקוח נפש?

[aygart]

Whatever the heter is it may very well have to do that מין במינו בטל מדאורייתא and Chazal not being gozer in such a case.

What about when you mix the milk into another item?

[shulem92]

No, it doesn’t. The chazaka is built on a rov, chazal said rov are kasher, not all.

I’m exhausted as well. But siman 81 seems to be pretty clear that each cow regardless of the herd, has its own chezkas kashrus. Just curious, at what point in a cows life does it lose its chazaka that it is a chai, and it becomes a treifa? Unless you’re learning that we need the rov because some cows are born treifos, and therefore chazal needed the rov to say don’t be choshesh for that? I’m honestly trying to figure out right now your thought process with an open mind

[imayid2]

I’m exhausted as well. But siman 81 seems to be pretty clear that each cow regardless of the herd, has its own chezkas kashrus. Just curious, at what point in a cows life does it lose its chazaka that it is a chai, and it becomes a treifa? Unless you’re learning that we need the rov because some cows are born treifos, and therefore chazal needed the rov to say don’t be choshesh for that? I’m honestly trying to figure out right now your thought process with an open mind

The chazaka paskens on each individual cow. It does not tell us that within this herd there definitely aren’t any treifos. Reality tells us there are.