Topic Wiki

Links to kosher symbol lists. Each list is obviously only as reliable as its source

cRc: http://www.crcweb.org/agency_list.php

KosherQuest: https://kosherquest.org/kosher-symbols/

Approved alcoholic drinks from the Rabbanut.  http://www.jerusalemkoshernews.com/wp-content/uploads/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A7%D7%90%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D.pdf

These are NOT Orthodox: https://sites.google.com/site/nonorthodoxkosher/home (even though some may look legit)


Informative post regarding Kashrus Agencies
Every hashgacha has +&-.


You can also submit any kashrus questions at
https://www.askcrc.org/ask
https://oukosher.org/ask-kosher-question/
https://www.star-k.org/ask-rabbi choose General Consumer Kashrus Questions in the Subject/Topic Dropdown list
https://www.ok.org/contact/ choose Kosher in the Attention Dropdown list



Author Topic: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread  (Read 1229358 times)

Offline shulem92

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6800 on: July 24, 2024, 02:48:18 PM »
The chazaka paskens on each individual cow. It does not tell us that within this herd there definitely aren’t any treifos. Reality tells us there are.
do you agree that chazaka tells me on each cow that it isn’t a treifa until right before shechita? That even if we find this cow is a vadai treifa it wasn’t always like this? If so how can you tell me that right now there is treifa in this herd? (Unless you’re shechting right now, which then I may agree with you within 3 days because of siman 81).

Offline moko

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6801 on: July 24, 2024, 02:49:25 PM »
You have zero basis to allege that they are better than other cows, especially if we see that they are worse when shechted.

Would they not require בדיקת הריאה? Of course they do. Because we know a certain amount are treifos. And therefore when a large amount is mixed you are guaranteed treifos. Vadai.
that is incorrect. We definitely know that younger milking cows are in better health than older milking and meat cows
Also, organic free pasture is known to be better because of diet and exercise (not just to prevent da, but fir overall animal health)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6802 on: July 24, 2024, 02:51:31 PM »
that is incorrect. We definitely know that younger milking cows are in better health than older milking and meat cows
Health isn’t necessarily an indication for treifos. Again, clearly their conditions cause more treifos. And again, would they not need bedika?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6803 on: July 24, 2024, 02:53:51 PM »
do you agree that chazaka tells me on each cow that it isn’t a treifa until right before shechita? That even if we find this cow is a vadai treifa it wasn’t always like this?
Yes
If so how can you tell me that right now there is treifa in this herd? (Unless you’re shechting right now, which then I may agree with you within 3 days because of siman 81).
Because חזקה isn’t a birur on the metzious.

Offline shulem92

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6804 on: July 24, 2024, 03:00:49 PM »
YesBecause חזקה isn’t a birur on the metzious.
ok, but what is telling you otherwise that the metzius isn’t like that??

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6805 on: July 24, 2024, 03:01:39 PM »
ok, but what is telling you otherwise that the metzius isn’t like that??
The chazaka talks to each cow. That chazaka isn’t going against the metzius.

Offline shulem92

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6806 on: July 24, 2024, 03:08:00 PM »
The chazaka talks to each cow. That chazaka isn’t going against the metzius.
what metzius?? The only metzius that has been discussed in this conversation has been AFTER shechita!

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6807 on: July 24, 2024, 03:08:40 PM »




Offline chessman1

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6808 on: July 24, 2024, 03:09:52 PM »
The chazaka paskens on each individual cow. It does not tell us that within this herd there definitely aren’t any treifos. Reality tells us there are.

Reality tells us that there likely are. It doesn't guarantee it.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6809 on: July 24, 2024, 03:11:29 PM »
Reality tells us that there likely are. It doesn't guarantee it.
It absolutely does.

Offline chessman1

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6810 on: July 24, 2024, 03:13:18 PM »
It absolutely does.
Do you think it's impossible to find 100 non-treifa cows in the world?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6811 on: July 24, 2024, 03:15:12 PM »
Do you think it's impossible to find 100 non-treifa cows in the world?
No

Do you think it’s impossible to flip a coin 10,000 times and get the same results?

Offline chessman1

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6812 on: July 24, 2024, 03:19:50 PM »
No

Do you think it’s impossible to flip a coin 10,000 times and get the same results?

If you flip a coin enough times, it's certainly possible (and even expected eventually).

Also, the relevant comparison here for 100 cows (assuming that 50% of cows are treifos), would be flipping that coin 100 times.

The analogy also breaks down because flipping the coin is truly 10,000 independent events, each with a 50% likelihood of either outcome. Here, you could have 100 of the best, healthiest cows (which have lower rates of treifos) or 100 of the worst, decrepit cows (with an incredibly high rate of treifos).

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6813 on: July 24, 2024, 03:22:15 PM »
If you flip a coin enough times, it's certainly possible (and even expected eventually).

Also, the relevant comparison here for 100 cows (assuming that 50% of cows are treifos), would be flipping that coin 100 times.

The analogy also breaks down because flipping the coin is truly 10,000 independent events, each with a 50% likelihood of either outcome. Here, you could have 100 of the best, healthiest cows (which have lower rates of treifos) or 100 of the worst, decrepit cows (with an incredibly high rate of treifos).
I’m not really understanding your statistical analysis. I’m going to refer you back to Rabbi Cohen and Rabbi Bleich who explain it clearly.

(Also we are not talking about 100 cows. Current farms have many times more than that)

Offline aygart

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6814 on: July 24, 2024, 03:39:58 PM »




(Also we are not talking about 100 cows. Current farms have many times more than that)

So what? With 60 it is  over 99% already. At which point are you considering it worse than that and why?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6815 on: July 24, 2024, 03:40:57 PM »

So what? With 60 it is  over 99% already. At which point are you considering it worse than that and why?
At what point do you consider it an impossibility and why?

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6816 on: July 24, 2024, 03:42:02 PM »
At what point do you consider it an impossibility and why?
Is you have something to present then do it
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6817 on: July 24, 2024, 03:42:46 PM »
Is you have something to present then do it
I do not, do you?

Offline shulem92

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6818 on: July 24, 2024, 03:42:51 PM »



if I meet him I will ask him the same question. What happened to siman 81 proving to us that we don’t care about any potential treifos until 3 days before shechita. (Unless it can be seen externally)

Offline chessman1

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Re: Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread
« Reply #6819 on: July 24, 2024, 03:45:03 PM »
I’m not really understanding your statistical analysis. I’m going to refer you back to Rabbi Cohen and Rabbi Bleich who explain it clearly.

(Also we are not talking about 100 cows. Current farms have many times more than that)

The statistic that I believe R' Cohen quoted (which you noted in your prior post https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=16659.msg2844871#msg2844871) was that if 10% of cows are treifos, then the likelihood of finding 16 or fewer treifos in 1,000 cows is less than 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

But that probability is only true (I'm trusting his math on this) if you assume a population treifa level of 10%, that you're selecting cows at random from the whole population, and that there aren't any other factors impacting the likelihood of treifos in the cows you select. If the cows that you're milking have characteristics that make them much less likely to be treifa, you aren't guaranteed 17 or more treifos just because that's what you would find in a random sample of the whole population.