Interesting things found in Seforim thread

[Lamdan]

Hard to believe.

Are you accusing Rav Shlomo Hacohen MeVilna, the Mechaber of Cheshek Shlomo, someone who the Chafetz Chaim got haskamos from for his seforim, of lying?

[meshugener]

No.

[Lamdan]

No.

so what do you mean when you write "hard to believe", if you weren't accusing him of lying you should have written "unbelievable".

[good sam]

so what do you mean when you write "hard to believe", if you weren't accusing him of lying you should have written "unbelievable".

Once you're going the semantic route, I would say that the inconclusive and subjective "hard to believe" is less harsh than the conclusive and objective "unbelievable"

[Lamdan]

Once you're going the semantic route, I would say that the inconclusive and subjective "hard to believe" is less harsh than the conclusive and objective "unbelievable"

Without getting too deep, in English as it is spoken commonly in America today, "unbelievable", means "I believe it, but wow, it shocked me", "hard to believe" means "I question if it's true".

[chaimmayer]

I thought you have to be gadol to give kiddushin?

[meshugener]

Not so sure. Yibum, for example can be done from the 9, even though its a Kinyan.

[Lamdan]

I thought you have to be gadol to give kiddushin?

The same thing is bothering me.

[AsherO]

I thought you have to be gadol to give kiddushin?

There's also a heichi timtza of a K'tana being mekabel kiddushin (for herself), I think it's in  case of yiud then divorce. That's (perhaps) the basis for a K'tana being mekabel kiddushin for her father.

[ChAiM'l]

Interesting thread, thanks Lamdan!

Is it just me that was wondering where the Seforim thread is?

[Lamdan]

כותב הג'''ר יהונתן אייבשיץ זצ''ל, ''אוי לי על שברי בעת שאיני מתפלל בכונה כראוי, כל היום אין שמועתי בתורה מכוונת''

עי' ביערות דבש דרוש ד' שכותב וז''ל, אוי לי על שברי בעת שאיני מתפלל בכונה כראוי, כל היום אין שמועתי בתורה מכוונת וקרעים אלביש, ולהיפך אם אזעק ואשוע לה' מקירות לבבי בתפלה לחונני דעה, כי דלותי עד מאוד בעו''ה, אף הוא ירחם עלי להאיר עיני בתורתו, עכ''ל.

[skyguy918]

There's also a heichi timtza of a K'tana being mekabel kiddushin (for herself), I think it's in  case of yiud then divorce. That's (perhaps) the basis for a K'tana being mekabel kiddushin for her father.

Whether it's through the father or not, it's established that there is a concept of a kiddushin by a ketana. By a katan however, there is no such concept, whether through the father or on his own. The way the story is presented it does make it sound like the father married the son off as a katan, but more likely it means they did something like tna'im when he was, but they probably waited till 18 to actually get married.

[chaimmayer]

Whether it's through the father or not, it's established that there is a concept of a kiddushin by a ketana. By a katan however, there is no such concept, whether through the father or on his own. The way the story is presented it does make it sound like the father married the son off as a katan, but more likely it means they did something like tna'im when he was, but they probably waited till 18 to actually get married.

+1
את בתי נתתי לאיש הזה requires the מקדש to be a גדול iirc It's a while since I left kollel.
The rules of קטנה are dif.

[meshugener]

So why is 'Yibum' different?

[skyguy918]

So why is 'Yibum' different?

The basic answer would be that the bi'ah effects yibum even without da'as kinyan. But there's no such thing as kiddushin without da'as kinyan. It's obviously much more complicated than that, but I don't know the sugya well enough and this is probably not the place for an in depth discussion on the topic.

[meshugener]

AFAIK, Yibum requires a kinyan, so why not da'as?

[skyguy918]

AFAIK, Yibum requires a kinyan, so why not da'as?

Let me back up. M'doraysa, maaseh katan aino maaseh. If a 9 year old does yibum, the status of the yavam and yevama is the same as when a gadol does ma'amar. The whole thing is m'drabanan and they're sort of in limbo until they do yibum when he is a gadol.

As far as yibum being a kinyan, it's not the same kinyan as kiddushin. We certainly see that you don't need da'as from the cases of ones and shogeg, where the yibum is valid even though there's no da'as kinyan. The same thing is true by a katan, where despite the fact that he can't have da'as kinyan (at least in the classic sense) the rabanan considered it a valid yibum to a certain extent.

[chaimmayer]

Are you sure a קטן can do יבום ?

[elikay]

http://www.haoros.com/Archive/index.asp?kovetz=874&cat=6&haoro=0

[meshugener]

@chaimMayer
IIRC its a Mishnah.