PRICING MISTAKE: 4 miles from Hong Kong

[damaxer91]

Well so much for the plans to move the Mir back to Shanghai.

Looks like some people might actually need to go to the Catskills again this summer

[milechazzer]

Without getting into the merits of whether United “owes” us anything, or any moral questions as to whether booking the tickets was the right thing to do, I think what’s getting lost here is whether or not United’s actions are in violation of 14 CFR 399.88, and its seemingly intended purpose.
 
“(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.”
 
Based on the parameters of the regulation, this whole notion that there is a award mileage chart located somewhere on United’s website, which indicates higher mileage amounts than were “charged” seems completely irrelevant to the issues in question. It also seems irrelevant that they quoted two different “prices” during the course of the transaction, because the final price quoted was 4 miles, and if the airline ticketed the reservation at the final quoted price, then they seem to have clearly increased the price after the purchase. I would say the only question is whether the purchase should be deemed complete if they never actually deducted any miles from the purchaser’s account, since the regulation says that “A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.” That being said, they did charge the purchaser’s credit card in full for the taxes, and they did issue the ticket, so the fact that they did not deduct the miles from the purchaser’s account seems like a pretty weak argument.

Obviously, the DOT can do as the please with this, but I think it would set a pretty poor precedent and send the wrong signal to the industry about the enforcement of this regulation if they let United cancel without any consequences.

[ChAiM'l]

Well so much for the plans to move the Mir back to Shanghai.

ALOL!

[AJK]

Without getting into the merits of whether United “owes” us anything, or any moral questions as to whether booking the tickets was the right thing to do, I think what’s getting lost here is whether or not United’s actions are in violation of 14 CFR 399.88, and its seemingly intended purpose.
 
“(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.”
 
Based on the parameters of the regulation, this whole notion that there is a award mileage chart located somewhere on United’s website, which indicates higher mileage amounts than were “charged” seems completely irrelevant to the issues in question. It also seems irrelevant that they quoted two different “prices” during the course of the transaction, because the final price quoted was 4 miles, and if the airline ticketed the reservation at the final quoted price, then they seem to have clearly increased the price after the purchase. I would say the only question is whether the purchase should be deemed complete if they never actually deducted any miles from the purchaser’s account, since the regulation says that “A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.” That being said, they did charge the purchaser’s credit card in full for the taxes, and they did issue the ticket, so the fact that they did not deduct the miles from the purchaser’s account seems like a pretty weak argument.

Obviously, the DOT can do as the please with this, but I think it would set a pretty poor precedent and send the wrong signal to the industry about the enforcement of this regulation if they let United cancel without any consequences.

I'd agree with everything you said if what you said didn't completely misunderstand the purpose of the regulation to begin with (which is what DoT alluded to in their emails to individuals who filed complaints):

to prevent airlines from unfairly and deceptively raising the price of a ticket after a consumer has paid in full and purchased that ticket.

Please explain what was unfair or deceptive about them cancelling a ticket for which you should have known was a complete and utter computer glitch.

[milechazzer]

I'd agree with everything you said if what you said didn't completely misunderstand the purpose of the regulation to begin with (which is what DoT alluded to in their emails to individuals who filed complaints):

to prevent airlines from unfairly and deceptively raising the price of a ticket after a consumer has paid in full and purchased that ticket.

Please explain what was unfair or deceptive about them cancelling a ticket for which you should have known was a complete and utter computer glitch.

That's a fair point. But I don't think United needs to have been deceptive (and maybe not even unfair) in order to be in violation of the regulation.  I appears that the regulation was enacted to protect consumers against deceptive and unfair practices, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's an intent based statute.  It actually seems like 14 CFR 399.88 is spelling out the criteria for determining whether a price increase is considered presumptively in violation of 49 U.S.C. 41712.

[dovie613]

I think the regulation's purpose very much covers this. The rationale for the regulation, is so that consumers can absolutely rely on any price they see advertised, regardless of how outrageously low.

And there is good reason for that. I have personally flown from NY to SF on Jetblue for 10 dollars. It wasn't a mistake, it was a promotion. So there really is no price that anyone can definitively know when a price is a mistake.

Now granted I knew with 99% probablility that this price was a mistake, because: (a) this is United, not JetBlue, and(b) it wasn't accompanied by a press release and advertisements. But you can't expect consumers to be familiar with each airline's history, and to scour the internet for advertisements before purchasing. So I think the reg's purpose totally covers it.

[sugarplum]

I'd agree with everything you said if what you said didn't completely misunderstand the purpose of the regulation to begin with (which is what DoT alluded to in their emails to individuals who filed complaints):

to prevent airlines from unfairly and deceptively raising the price of a ticket after a consumer has paid in full and purchased that ticket.

Please explain what was unfair or deceptive about them cancelling a ticket for which you should have known was a complete and utter computer glitch.

Would it be considered "unfair" because people have been flying on the 4 mile tickets since Sunday evening and will continue to until tomorrow, and others have had their tickets canceled (without being contacted first, I might add)?

[Ergel]

Would it be considered "unfair" because people have been flying on the 4 mile tickets since Sunday evening and will continue to until tomorrow, and others have had their tickets canceled (without being contacted first, I might add)?

Why is that unfair?

[milechazzer]

I think the point of the regulation is to take the "deceptiveness" and "fairness" analysis out of the equation, since the standard would be too subjective otherwise.  When the regulation starts off by saying "It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712" and then spells out very specific parameters, then it all comes down to whether the circumstances in question fit within the parameters spelled out in the regulation.  I don't think there's any basis for going back to the deception and fairness standard, unless the circumstances clearly do not meet the standards described in 14 CFR 399.88, and you are trying to determine when they were in violation of 49 U.S.C. 41712 without the application of 14 CFR 399.88

[dovie613]

Suppose this had been JetBlue, and you had logged on to JetBlue's website, pulled up a ticket, and seen it cost 4 miles to go to anywhere in their system. Would you have emailed Dan saying "price mistake", or saying "promotion"?

[meshugener]

Sometimes, smart mature people act and write so stupid and ignorant when it comes to their wallet.
Fellows, let's move on.

[milechazzer]

Idea for a new poll:

If you are vocally opposed to the idea of pursuing a DOT complaint, and are critical of those complaining about United Airlines cancellation of these reservations, did you catch the 4 mile hong kong deal and book and originally get ticketed??

YES       0%
NO    100%

[skyguy918]

Idea for a new poll:

If you are vocally opposed to the idea of pursuing a DOT complaint, and are critical of those complaining about United Airlines cancellation of these reservations, did you catch the 4 mile hong kong deal and book and originally get ticketed??

YES       0%
NO    100%

You're making it seem like the default, rational position is the one you hold, and those that take the opposite position are being influenced by the fact that they missed the deal. Far more likely is that your position is the one being influenced by the fact that you got in on the deal and are now seeking to capitalize on that.

[sky121]

You're making it seem like the default, rational position is the one you hold, and those that take the opposite position are being influenced by the fact that they missed the deal. Far more likely is that your position is the one being influenced by the fact that you got in on the deal and are now seeking to capitalize on that.

+1

[Chaikel]

You're making it seem like the default, rational position is the one you hold, and those that take the opposite position are being influenced by the fact that they missed the deal. Far more likely is that your position is the one being influenced by the fact that you got in on the deal and are now seeking to capitalize on that.

+1

Well if the both of you happened to have missed the deal, then you're actually proving his point

[AJK]

Well, then let me disprove it (I don't have time to directly respond to the other posts now):

I booked "enough."

[ceejay]

I'd agree with everything you said if what you said didn't completely misunderstand the purpose of the regulation to begin with (which is what DoT alluded to in their emails to individuals who filed complaints):


to prevent airlines from unfairly and deceptively raising the price of a ticket after a consumer has paid in full and purchased that ticket.


Please explain what was unfair or deceptive about them cancelling a ticket for which you should have known was a complete and utter computer glitch.

The only issue with  your logic is that the DOT specifically mentions the case of an human/computer error (as opposed to some deliberate deception) and states that the ticket price cannot be raised.

8.  Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation
where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a
consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?


Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air
transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air
transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a
consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a
government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing
a ticket.  A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.  Therefore, if
a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or
the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the
seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the
fare is a “mistake.”

http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ_01-11-2012final.pdf

[AJK]

Yes, but the difference, at least as UA sees it (and apparently, it seems, DoT), is that the proper price was listed a) on their award chart, b) on the price of the actual itinerary (before clicking select), and c) as an above-the-line preliminary cost.

The case with UA is particularly difficult because it's dealing with an award ticket (which always has published award charts) whereas with revenue based tickets, those can, and always do, fluctuate.

You'd be hard-pressed to find an argument where a reasonable consumer actually thought this was the current price vs thinking he or she was exploiting a glitch, especially because of the reasons set forth in paragraph one.

[Tzadik Nistar]

I booked a ticket with united by mistake i booked 8:30 in the evening instead of 8:30 in the morning is there a way united should honer my mistake and let me change without a fee?

[ajs625]

I filed a complaint with the DOT this morning and no response from them, will i receive that response that e/o else has been receiving?