Author Topic: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos  (Read 16987 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
« Reply #195 on: June 27, 2017, 09:56:23 PM »
Permission to Receive

Though believing in Torah Min Hashamayim requires one to first believe in Hashem.
I read some of the reviews on Amazon to get the gist of it.

From what I read there, I think the strongest argument (which IMHO talks also on levels other than intellect) is:

Quote
In the first case, he wonders why secular Bible critics have ignored the mass of commentary in the Talmud expressly devoted to explaining all the apparent textual contradictions that secular critics seem to think nobody ever noticed before.

This can be rephrased with a little more context, bringing to the surface the breadth of knowledge and understanding of true gedolei Yisroel, starting with תנאים ואמוראים, and continuing throughput the generations. All of those were definitely familiar with any questions you might have, and had a much wider knowledge, allowing them to see even questions you don't see, yet they are steadfast in יג עיקרים!

I think that once one internalizes this reality, all counter arguments (as seen in negative review) become irrelevant.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 10:01:19 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
« Reply #196 on: June 27, 2017, 10:06:28 PM »
I read some of the reviews on Amazon to get the gist of it.

From what I read there, I think the strongest argument (which IMHO talks also on levels other than intellect) is:

This can be rephrased with a little more context, bringing to the surface the breadth of knowledge and understanding of true gedolei Yisroel, starting with תנאים ואמוראים, and continuing throughput the generations. All of those were definitely familiar with any questions you might have, and had a much wider knowledge, allowing them to see even questions you don't see, yet they are steadfast in יג עיקרים!

I think that once one internalizes this reality, all counter arguments (as seen in negative review) become irrelevant.

It would helpful to see an example. Such as, what's the bomb kasha,how did Chazal answer it and how the Bible critics answer it.

Offline precise

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Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
« Reply #197 on: June 27, 2017, 11:02:39 PM »
Hard to believe that a ffb really has this issue as a root cause of the problem.

Is he eating traif?

I do not know if he eats treif but based on his language I wouldn't be shocked an iota if yes.
If the root cause is Taiva, then how will a book or intellectual conversation help?
Imho this particular case (and lots of other cases) the root cause is absolutely taaveh. The issue is since it is taaveh they have a guilty conscience and try covering it up with all sorts of theological questions. Once they start reading apikorses and the likes, since  the rock solid foundation of yiddishkeit is missing they get all excited and start believing there might be some truth to the garbage. And so it continues...if R"L there is no schar v'oinesh then let's do as we please...

So if I can provide this fellow with some material on the basics #1 he will see none of the questions were born today and however strong the questions Judaism is stronger and #2 even if I won't get him to that point of realizing the truth it'll definitely give him some guilt feelings which might stop him from slipping more

Has anyone ever read R Avogadro Millers book The truth of the Torah?


Online aygart

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Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
« Reply #198 on: June 27, 2017, 11:07:20 PM »
I do not know if he eats treif but based on his language I wouldn't be shocked an iota if yes. Imho this particular case (and lots of other cases) the root cause is absolutely taaveh. The issue is since it is taaveh they have a guilty conscience and try covering it up with all sorts of theological questions. Once they start reading apikorses and the likes, since  the rock solid foundation of yiddishkeit is missing they get all excited and start believing there might be some truth to the garbage. And so it continues...if R"L there is no schar v'oinesh then let's do as we please...

So if I can provide this fellow with some material on the basics #1 he will see none of the questions were born today and however strong the questions Judaism is stronger and #2 even if I won't get him to that point of realizing the truth it'll definitely give him some guilt feelings which might stop him from slipping more

Has anyone ever read R Avogadro Millers book The truth of the Torah?
I was going to mention R Miller's books but they are written in a very intellectual manner and he may not actually read them.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline precise

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Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
« Reply #199 on: June 27, 2017, 11:11:38 PM »
I was going to mention R Miller's books but they are written in a very intellectual manner and he may not actually read them.
Correct. His stuff weren't written for today's otd chassidim which are ignoramus. Is this true for this particular book as well?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
« Reply #200 on: June 27, 2017, 11:31:48 PM »
Imho this particular case (and lots of other cases) the root cause is absolutely taaveh.
So how is any intellectual argument going to help with that?

Quote
The issue is since it is taaveh they have a guilty conscience and try covering it up with all sorts of theological questions. Once they start reading apikorses and the likes, since  the rock solid foundation of yiddishkeit is missing they get all excited and start believing there might be some truth to the garbage. And so it continues...if R"L there is no schar v'oinesh then let's do as we please...
It might be missing, and it might not be missing. Taavos are very strong, sometimes they can overpower even someone with strong foundations. And once things begin, one never knows where they can end. Maybe the right approach would be to start talking to him about his kids, which I would assume he loves, and how he would like them to grow up.

Quote
So if I can provide this fellow with some material on the basics #1 he will see none of the questions were born today and however strong the questions Judaism is stronger and #2 even if I won't get him to that point of realizing the truth it'll definitely give him some guilt feelings which might stop him from slipping more
You are making some good arguments here, which leads me back to the conclusion, that guidance from an expert, rather than from friends on DDF, is what's called for.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online aygart

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Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
« Reply #201 on: June 27, 2017, 11:33:07 PM »
So how is any intellectual argument going to help with that?
It might be missing, and it might not be missing. Taavos are very strong, sometimes they can overpower even someone with strong foundations. And once things begin, one never knows where they can end. Maybe the right approach would be to start talking to him about his kids, which I would assume he loves, and how he would like them to grow up.
You are making some good arguments here, which leads me back to the conclusion, that guidance from an expert, rather than from friends on DDF, is what's called for.
there is even a psychological term for it. Cognitive dissonance.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Online aygart

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Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
« Reply #202 on: June 27, 2017, 11:35:02 PM »
I do not know if he eats treif but based on his language I wouldn't be shocked an iota if yes. Imho this particular case (and lots of other cases) the root cause is absolutely taaveh. The issue is since it is taaveh they have a guilty conscience and try covering it up with all sorts of theological questions. Once they start reading apikorses and the likes, since  the rock solid foundation of yiddishkeit is missing they get all excited and start believing there might be some truth to the garbage. And so it continues...if R"L there is no schar v'oinesh then let's do as we please...

So if I can provide this fellow with some material on the basics #1 he will see none of the questions were born today and however strong the questions Judaism is stronger and #2 even if I won't get him to that point of realizing the truth it'll definitely give him some guilt feelings which might stop him from slipping more

Has anyone ever read R Avogadro Millers book The truth of the Torah?
Do you really think he read things which opened questions or just that he knows of there existence or maybe not even that?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline avremel

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Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
« Reply #203 on: June 30, 2017, 08:35:37 AM »
Like a Rosh Yeshiva once told me, that the reason why there's no haskalah today is because no one cares, and no one thinks. He said there's a maalah that no one thinks bec. there's no haskala, but the chisaron is that the yiddishkeit is less strong. He said he doesn't know if the pros of a non-thinking generation outweigh the cons.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe aggrees with distinction between Europe and America, and provides his own solution (Igros Koshesh Vol 15 P 44):

...וכבר אמרתי כמה פעמים שאחת המעלות טובות דאמריקה לגבי אירופה מאז, היא שהמצב כאן הוא לא מציאות הרע שמוכרח להלחם בו, אלא בעיקר עם-הארצות (שהוא רק ענין של העדר ושלילה) שהביא לידי חלל רוחני והעדר תוכן. ולכן הקו דעשה טוב עוד יותר מחוייב כאן, וכל הויכוחים הם בדרגה שני' ואפשר שלישית ועוד למטה. ובעיקר - צריך להפיץ דיעות ישרות מבוססות על התורה ועל המסורה. ובימינו אלה בפרט, בכדי שהתעמולה הזאת תתקבל על דעת חוגים רחבים, וביחוד בין הנוער, מוכרח שתהי' חדורה אור וחיות ותנועה של שמחה, שגם אלה מתכונות ויסודות שיטת החסידות.