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[joeb1]

I'm out of popcorn since page 3 so im moving on to 🍔🍟🍗🍖🍝🍛

[Baruch]

 And please don't reply by what your Das Bal Habayis says. If you have a Halachdig argument you're more than welcome.

I was making a Halchadig argument. The inyan of Grama doesn't seem to fit into the discussion about the chiyuv to have children. If Rav Moshe says it does, I'd read his words, and harava on it, and try to understand them. (As I've done many times. I'm getting tired of having to defend myself against an accusation that I don't have full respect for Rav Moshe)

[wayfe]

It's called having a vasectomy.

No. That's the equivalent of woman having her tubes tied. We're talking temporary infertility here, not permanent.

[luckyluck]

To clear the air, on a lighter note... A real story that happened many years ago:
A Jewish lady was on the bus with 6 of her children. A non Jewish lady was looking at her for a while and then finally came over and asked: I don't understand, why didn't you just leave half of the kids at home?... The Jewish lady answered: but that's exactly what I did!

[ilherman]

I am pretty sure r Moshe does discuss it at the location I mentioned earlier.

Thanks! Will check it out tomorrow..

I was just saying what I remembered off hand....

[Baruch]

Thanks! Will check it out tomorrow..

I was just saying what I remembered off hand....

Pls post. The gist of my post was asking you if you are sure that that's what Rav Moshe said.

[ilherman]

As far as I remember, yes. But I am always happy to say "I was wrong" 

[MeirS]

If that from Rabbi Eliezrie's book?

[mrprez27]

I disagree. Morality is entirely dependent on religion. Without religion there's no reason why the law of the jungle shouldn't be the law.

But what's that got to do with cursing?

There's a lot of Atheists who still follow moral laws (what is morality in its self is a highly debatable topic) . . . are we talking about Murder (Ok what constitutes murder) . . . are we talking about things like "Adultery" - Society is divided on that. 

There's a huge philosophical debate regarding religion and morality.

Now here's how your question is a issue: By saying Morality is dependent on religion what your doing is assuming that the laws we have in place in society are only there (Most people consider the laws we have in place as moral - it's illegal to kill in US law and the Torah) and we consider these things 'normal' and thus why when we see people like ISIS and what there doing as 'barbaric'.

Anyhow the big question you pose --Brings us to this---> is our laws based on the Bible/Torah -  (Old Testament-How ever you flavor it)-many will say though that it's just known that you shouldn't "Kill"  steal, rape.

So it brings us to a huge philosophical question: What really makes what's shown in the Bible "Moral"...as Jews or people we have  alot of issues in our religion that we debate and discuss but everyone can agree that certain things are just true. Its wrong to Kill for no reason, Steal, Rape.

Which gets me to the actual question: Is what G-d says is moral, moral because G-d says it or is it Moral independently and G-d says it. -- Is murder wrong because G-d tells us not to do it or does G-d tell us not to it because it is wrong.

Your second point of the "Law Of the Jungle" which I assume is a phrase to do what ever you want --> but societies have always set up laws...you can bring me points about ISIS and other groups who ARE doing what they want -- killing, raping...and they do it under a "Religion"...but to be fair they are just perverting the ISLAM religion.

Attached is the literature supplied by my Atheist Ethics professor when we broached this topic. Almost all of the arguments I presented I believe can be refuted . . . personally I disagree with a lot of what's mentioned in the text, including my arguments above...Im just playing devils advocate.

[joe1234]

There's a lot of Atheists who still follow moral laws (what is morality in its self is a highly debatable topic) . . . are we talking about Murder (Ok what constitutes murder) . . . are we talking about things like "Adultery" - Society is divided on that. 

There's a huge philosophical debate regarding religion and morality.

Now here's how your question is a issue: By saying Morality is dependent on religion what your doing is assuming that the laws we have in place in society are only there (Most people consider the laws we have in place as moral - it's illegal to kill in US law and the Torah) and we consider these things 'normal' and thus why when we see people like ISIS and what there doing as 'barbaric'.

Anyhow the big question you pose --Brings us to this---> is our laws based on the Bible/Torah -  (Old Testament-How ever you flavor it)-many will say though that it's just known that you shouldn't "Kill"  steal, rape.

So it brings us to a huge philosophical question: What really makes what's shown in the Bible "Moral"...as Jews or people we have  alot of issues in our religion that we debate and discuss but everyone can agree that certain things are just true. Its wrong to Kill for no reason, Steal, Rape.

Which gets me to the actual question: Is what G-d says is moral, moral because G-d says it or is it Moral independently and G-d says it. -- Is murder wrong because G-d tells us not to do it or does G-d tell us not to it because it is wrong.

Your second point of the "Law Of the Jungle" which I assume is a phrase to do what ever you want --> but societies have always set up laws...you can bring me points about ISIS and other groups who ARE doing what they want -- killing, raping...and they do it under a "Religion"...but to be fair they are just perverting the ISLAM religion.

Attached is the literature supplied by my Atheist Ethics professor when we broached this topic. Almost all of the arguments I presented I believe can be refuted . . . personally I disagree with a lot of what's mentioned in the text, including my arguments above...Im just playing devils advocate.

that is kefira 

[mrprez27]

that is kefira 

True -- I shouldn't be posting this Rubbish lol - Its all Academic Nonsense honestly.

[good sam]

There's a lot of Atheists who still follow moral laws (what is morality in its self is a highly debatable topic) . . . are we talking about Murder (Ok what constitutes murder) . . . are we talking about things like "Adultery" - Society is divided on that. 

There's a huge philosophical debate regarding religion and morality.

Now here's how your question is a issue: By saying Morality is dependent on religion what your doing is assuming that the laws we have in place in society are only there (Most people consider the laws we have in place as moral - it's illegal to kill in US law and the Torah) and we consider these things 'normal' and thus why when we see people like ISIS and what there doing as 'barbaric'.

Anyhow the big question you pose --Brings us to this---> is our laws based on the Bible/Torah -  (Old Testament-How ever you flavor it)-many will say though that it's just known that you shouldn't "Kill"  steal, rape.

So it brings us to a huge philosophical question: What really makes what's shown in the Bible "Moral"...as Jews or people we have  alot of issues in our religion that we debate and discuss but everyone can agree that certain things are just true. Its wrong to Kill for no reason, Steal, Rape.

Which gets me to the actual question: Is what G-d says is moral, moral because G-d says it or is it Moral independently and G-d says it. -- Is murder wrong because G-d tells us not to do it or does G-d tell us not to it because it is wrong.

Your second point of the "Law Of the Jungle" which I assume is a phrase to do what ever you want --> but societies have always set up laws...you can bring me points about ISIS and other groups who ARE doing what they want -- killing, raping...and they do it under a "Religion"...but to be fair they are just perverting the ISLAM religion.

Attached is the literature supplied by my Atheist Ethics professor when we broached this topic. Almost all of the arguments I presented I believe can be refuted . . . personally I disagree with a lot of what's mentioned in the text, including my arguments above...Im just playing devils advocate.

Wow that's long winded. My response would have been:

How do you explain the existence of atheists who hold themselves to a moral standard?

The answer? They probably view morality as a social contract. You and me don't want to be killed, raped or robbed so we agree as a society to outlaw murder, rape and theft.

[yudamaan]

[zale]

Figured I'd beat Mesh to it.

Essentially there is nothing wrong. This is the way we were created and it's perfectly natural. It only became "wrong" after the Chet Eitz Hada'as.

Certain tribes in Africa today don't believe in wearing clothing.

[zale]

+1000

The other threads should be deleted as well. They're beyond ridiculous (and that's the least of their problems).

What's with all the "delete these threads" demonstrations? This is the JS section. Nobody is breaking any rules here AFAIK.

[good sam]

Absolutely nothing- that's how we are born. And who are we to think we can outdo G-d!?

You are right.  I'm taking them off right now, it's against gods will.

Essentially there is nothing wrong. This is the way we were created and it's perfectly natural. It only became "wrong" after the Chet Eitz Hada'as.

Certain tribes in Africa today don't believe in wearing clothing.

POIDH

[meshugener]

In the secular world today it is common to curse. What makes you say that it is a problem for them? It's part of their normal vocabulary.

It's not allowed on TV (except on HBO).

[ckmk47]

There's a lot of Atheists who still follow moral laws (what is morality in its self is a highly debatable topic) . . . are we talking about Murder (Ok what constitutes murder) . . . are we talking about things like "Adultery" - Society is divided on that. 

There's a huge philosophical debate regarding religion and morality.
.............

Morality independent of Torah has no basis to rely on.  Society will make up rules that suit themselves and the parameter of morality will change over time.
When I was young (many years ago) there was shock and much discussion over euthanasia - mercy killings.  Now it is the highest level of morality to 'die with dignity', so starving hospitalized Grandma to death is moral.
Abortion for a woman who's life 'would be ruined' by having a baby now - mostly moral today.

[meshugener]

If not an expression of relief, I believe I did come across some studies that claimed cursing actually provided relief from pain (like cursing after stubbing your toe, etc.)

It definitely provides relief.

You should try it one day.

[wayfe]

There's a lot of Atheists who still follow moral laws

Then I'll disagree with you that they are atheists. If they believe in morality they believe in a Higher Being. "All men are created equal in the eyes of G-d." Tale away the last part of that sentence and you're left with a "says who?". We don't look like we were created equal. If we are all just another species of animals then just like animals, the strongest (richest/smartest/whitest, etc.) one gets his way.

Now here's how your question is a issue: By saying Morality is dependent on religion what your doing is assuming that the laws we have in place in society are only there (Most people consider the laws we have in place as moral - it's illegal to kill in US law and the Torah) and we consider these things 'normal' and thus why when we see people like ISIS and what there doing as 'barbaric'.

Anyhow the big question you pose --Brings us to this---> is our laws based on the Bible/Torah -  (Old Testament-How ever you flavor it)-many will say though that it's just known that you shouldn't "Kill"  steal, rape.

Looking at ancient civilizations (or indeed the idea of a civilization as opposed to a nomadic tribe), you see that it wasn't "known." It was an idea that had to be introduced to humanity. The Torah was the one that introduced morals to the world.

So it brings us to a huge philosophical question: What really makes what's shown in the Bible "Moral"...as Jews or people we have  alot of issues in our religion that we debate and discuss but everyone can agree that certain things are just true. Its wrong to Kill for no reason, Steal, Rape.

Again, these have been accepted as cultural truths. But- why is it wrong to steal or rape. I want that. I'm stronger, I could grab it away- so therefore, I should have it. It is only the idea that we all have equal rights to life, to our possessions (because we were created equal in the eys of G-d) that changes things.

Which gets me to the actual question: Is what G-d says is moral, moral because G-d says it or is it Moral independently and G-d says it. -- Is murder wrong because G-d tells us not to do it or does G-d tell us not to it because it is wrong.

Yes, I've heard that one. It's right up there with the big questions along with "Can G-d create a stone too heavy for him to lift?"

The answer: As a Jew, I believe first (if there can even be a concept of first or later before the creation of time) there was G-d. G-d decides it's good to be good and bad to be bad. He decides what is good and what is bad. (I think that's the order...) He lets us know what is good and what is bad in the Torah.

If you can envision the notion of Morality before god, that morality exists and therefore god desires it- then what is your god worth?

Your second point of the "Law Of the Jungle" which I assume is a phrase to do what ever you want --> but societies have always set up laws...you can bring me points about ISIS and other groups who ARE doing what they want -- killing, raping...and they do it under a "Religion"...but to be fair they are just perverting the ISLAM religion.

Societies have also set up religions- but that is irrelevent. A society setting up laws in order for it to be able to function isn't acting on behalf of morality. If I don't steal from you just so that you won't steal me- that is just selfish. Not moral.

Attached is the literature supplied by my Atheist Ethics professor when we broached this topic. Almost all of the arguments I presented I believe can be refuted . . . personally I disagree with a lot of what's mentioned in the text, including my arguments above...Im just playing devils advocate.

Too small to read. Maybe I'm getting old.