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[wayfe]

That wasn't how I read what he posited.  Obviously everything began with God, that's not the point.  From the viewpoint of morality, did God assur something because it's innately wrong in the system He was creating?  Or do we view it as innately wrong solely because God assured it?  That's a fair question in a discussion regarding the possibility for morality outside of religion.

I'm not so good with words but I'll try. If everything began with G-d, then there can be no truths before G-d created them. So they can't be intrinsically good or evil. But simply are that which G-d deems it to be. G-d could have created a world where it's moral to lie, steal and cheat. And that would've been the "right" thing to do.

The idea that any concept can exist before G-d created it is kefirah.

[Lou Bob]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XVtZk7gma_I

[joe1234]

Quickly devolving into personal attacks.  Fun...

That wasn't how I read what he posited.  Obviously everything began with God, that's not the point.  From the viewpoint of morality, did God assur something because it's innately wrong in the system He was creating?  Or do we view it as innately wrong solely because God assured it?  That's a fair question in a discussion regarding the possibility for morality outside of religion.

sorry i never meant anything personal. i didn't understand it the way you did, and according to the way i understood it(he also understood it that way), it is kefira, and therefore was telling you in sincerity to speak with your LOR to get you back on track.
in regards to the way you understand the question, the answer is that still, G-D didn't create the taryag mitzvos according to the way he was going to create his world, "histakel be"oraiseh uboro alma"- Hashem looked into the torah and according to the torah he created the world, not vice-versa. still its kefir a! and you should clarify this with your LOR ASAP!
look at the brisker rav on hilchos pesach that explains that this is the mistake of the rasha(again i don't mean to be offensive).

[David Smith]

well if everyone in the world would be walking around naked, saying the F curse, while the women are on BC... don't want to imagine what the world would look like... 

Empty, that's how it would look.

[srap]

Quote<blockquote>"The study, published today in the journal NeuroReport, measured how long college students could keep their hands immersed in cold water. During the chilly exercise, they could repeat an expletive of their choice or chant a neutral word. When swearing, the 67 student volunteers reported less pain and on average endured about 40 seconds longer."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-we-swear/
 

The person swearing is distracted by his own words and negative anger emotions so feels less pain. The untrained chanter repeating a neutral word is in automatic mode without distraction so he focuses on the pain.  A TRAINED chanter/meditator should actually feel the least pain. 

I doubt volunteers were screened for their ability to go into meditative mode.  No control group. Skewed results based on the inherent methodology of the experiment.  Experiment not valid IMO. 
</blockquote>

[joe1234]

The person swearing is distracted by his own words and negative anger emotions so feels less pain. The untrained chanter repeating a neutral word is in automatic mode without distraction so he focuses on the pain.  A TRAINED chanter/meditator should actually feel the least pain.  I doubt volunteers were screened for their ability to go into meditative mode.  No control group.  Experiment results not valid IMO.  Skewed results based on the inherent methodology of the experiment.
</blockquote>

+1 was also thinking of that.

[David Smith]

Although the OP didn't mean the title question as a real question, rather as an answer to a different question posted on the forum, some seem to have mentioned that a naturalist shouldn't be embarrassed of our G-d created natural being. A real answer to the question is hopefully self evident and completely unnecessary, that fact being the point of the thread in of itself, which some seem to have missed. Nevertheless, I'll post a quick synopsis of my understanding and what I've learnt.
We were created perfect and pure, in the image of G-d. Adam and Chava walked around Gan Eden in perfect purity and innocence, without any of the sensual and crude thoughts and desires humans have today.
However, that changed after the Etz Hada'as. A yetzer hara was internalized in them, and they started looking at nakedness with the kind of crudity that we are used to associating nakedness with. They them realized that their essence had diametrically changed, and they were no longer perfect. The covering they put on themselves was an attempt to cover that  imperfection.
Today, the world has gotten to such a sick state that we glorify the imperfection that the human body symbolizes. Therefore, people try to show off their bodies and imperfection, for the flaws of nakedness are their pride, rather than trying to fix it.
 Us Jews perform a circumcision on our newborn infants, setting the tone for life that we are not here to glorify and magnify the shortcomings of this world, bit rather to glorify and magnify the presence of Hashem in it by subduing and overcoming these shortcomings for His sake. That is why modesty is such an integral part of our religion.

[Aaaron]

I'm not so good with words but I'll try. If everything began with G-d, then there can be no truths before G-d created them. So they can't be intrinsically good or evil. But simply are that which G-d deems it to be. G-d could have created a world where it's moral to lie, steal and cheat. And that would've been the "right" thing to do.

The idea that any concept can exist before G-d created it is kefirah.

No one said anything about a concept existing before God.  You say something is "intrinsically good or evil."  Which takes us back to the original question.  Why is murder evil?  Is it evil because God said so in the aseres hadibros, or is it evil anyway, and that was just when he codified it?  Not sure how asking that is kefira? 

sorry i never meant anything personal. i didn't understand it the way you did, and according to the way i understood it(he also understood it that way), it is kefira, and therefore was telling you in sincerity to speak with your LOR to get you back on track.
in regards to the way you understand the question, the answer is that still, G-D didn't create the taryag mitzvos according to the way he was going to create his world, "histakel be"oraiseh uboro alma"- Hashem looked into the torah and according to the torah he created the world, not vice-versa. still its kefira!

See above.  And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree whether it's kefira.

[Joe4007]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XVtZk7gma_I

Awesome.

[David Smith]

As far as I remember, yes. But I am always happy to say "I was wrong" 

Are you?

[joe1234]

No one said anything about a concept existing before God.  You say something is "intrinsically good or evil."  Which takes us back to the original question.  Why is murder evil?  Is it evil because God said so in the aseres hadibros, or is it evil anyway, and that was just when he codified it?  Not sure how asking that is kefira? 

See above.  And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree whether it's kefira.

there is no such thing as anyway everything comes from the torah and G-D.
i dont agree to disagree

[Aaaron]

there is no such thing as anyway everything comes from the torah and G-D.
i dont agree to disagree

Wow.  So the only thing stopping you from murder, rape, theft, etc., is your belief in HaShem? 

[wayfe]

No one said anything about a concept existing before God.  You say something is "intrinsically good or evil."  Which takes us back to the original question.  Why is murder evil?  Is it evil because God said so in the aseres hadibros, or is it evil anyway, and that was just when he codified it?  Not sure how asking that is kefira? 

Firstly, I said it isn't intrinsically good or evil.

Secondly, if you say that murder is evil and that's why G-d codified it as wrong in the Torah, you are essentially saying that the concept of evil (and murder) exists in the same right as G-d. You're saying there's G-d and there's evil.

There lies the problem

[David Smith]

Wow.  So the only thing stopping you from murder, rape, theft, etc., is your belief in HaShem?

That's where the concept of morality came from. In a dog eat dog world, as the animals have, big dog is boss, and everything else is food. If someone is more enlightened than these  archaic religious fanatics that are in essence murderers and rapists if not for their religion, (but not enlightened enough to know where that came from), we hope that said person is proud of themselves and what they've accomplished for the betterment of society.

[Aaaron]

Firstly, I said it isn't intrinsically good or evil.

Secondly, if you say that murder is evil and that's why G-d codified it as wrong in the Torah, you are essentially saying that the concept of evil (and murder) exists in the same right as G-d. You're saying there's G-d and there's evil.

There lies the problem

That's where the concept of morality came from. In a dog eat dog world, as the animals have, big dog is boss, and everything else is food.

Disclaimer:  I believe there is such a thing as secular morality. 

I'm not sure how that's kefira or why it's a problem to believe some things are innately wrong or evil.  I'm not saying they preceded God or supersede Him.  And yes, I've had this conversation with my Rebbe and my Rov, neither of whom has called me a kofer.

[David Smith]

Disclaimer:  I believe there is such a thing as secular morality. 

I'm not sure how that's kefira or why it's a problem to believe some things are innately wrong or evil.  I'm not saying they preceded God or supersede Him.  And yes, I've had this conversation with my Rebbe and my Rov, neither of whom has called me a kofer.

I think that the belief that some things are innately wrong is something that has developed over time and is now firmly embedded in our society, not tied to any religion. However, the starting source for the concept of altruism and morality was religion and the belief in higher beings and purposes.

[Baruch]

POIDH

Alol

[meshugener]

Disclaimer:  I believe there is such a thing as secular morality. 

I'm not sure how that's kefira or why it's a problem to believe some things are innately wrong or evil.  I'm not saying they preceded God or supersede Him.  And yes, I've had this conversation with my Rebbe and my Rov, neither of whom has called me a kofer.

And I thought you'd realize by now that your rav is a clown. How many times do we have to tell you that?

[wayfe]

Disclaimer:  I believe there is such a thing as secular morality. 

I'm not sure how that's kefira or why it's a problem to believe some things are innately wrong or evil.

I've just explained it.

If I ask you why something is wrong we'd go round and round in circles. There's no logical reason why anything is wrong unless a Higher Being says so, or it's wrong because it's not smart and will ultimately fail you (selfish social contract)

[David Smith]

Alol

You think that's hard to find? Anybody with the remotest interest in such things will find themselves flooded after ten seconds on the internet. That's why i think DDF has to have such a high guard up, to keep such things that are pushing so hard to get in far at bay.