Random Posts

[wayfe]

You lost me.  Why doesn't the fact that society has developed an innate feeling of "murder is wrong" make it immoral?

You don't understand what the word innate means. It means inborn, natural, inextricably tied with the nature of the thing itself, part of the DNA. Such things do not change. Society can't develop innate feelings. They are either innate or need to be developed.

Why should I care what feelings society developed? Society is flawed. What if society developed a feeling that killing is pleasurable and moral. Should I need to change my views to accept those of society? Society is not the be all and end all- only G-d is.

Back up one second.  So now murder isn't immoral?  Do you see the pretzel you're twisting yourself into to try to convince yourself that morality requires religion.

I haven't twisted myself at. Murder is by it's own nature neither moral or immoral. In those cases that G-d decreed it immoral it is  immoral and in those situations that G-d demands it, it is moral.

But you haven't answered my question:

If G-d would have created a Torah where it was a Mitzvah to kill innocent people- would you? Would you consider yourself immoral?

[meshugener]

Did Jesus exist?

I believe so.

Who made it up? And how did that person get a billion of people to believe a fact that never happened?

[David Smith]

But let me ask you this: If G-d would have created a Torah where it was a Mitzvah to kill innocent people- would you? Would you consider yourself immoral?

Do you consider Muslim terrorists to be immoral?

[hvaces42]

I believe so.

Who made it up? And how did that person get a billion of people to believe a fact that never happened?

Ummm...the Koran was told to Mohammed by an angel...thats the story too. He's got 1.5 Billion followers too.

[grodnoking]

I believe so.

Who made it up? And how did that person get a billion of people to believe a fact that never happened?

How did hitler get people to believe that jews are the biggest problem. How did obama get people to believe he'd change America?

[Aaaron]

You don't understand what the word innate means. It means inborn, natural, inextricably tied with the nature of the thing itself, part of the DNA. Such things do not change. Society can't develop innate feelings. They are either innate or need to be developed.

Why should I care what feelings society developed? Society is flawed. What if society developed a feeling that killing is pleasurable and moral. Should I need to change my views to accept those of society? Society is not the be all and end all- only G-d is.

I think you're focusing on only one meaning.  I'm not saying murder has always been immoral.  I'm saying that modern society - through thousands of years of growth - has developed an innate sense that murder is immoral. 

I personally don't care whether you change along with society.  That doesn't change the fact that morals - absent religion - are fluid and change over time along with current social mores. 

I haven't twisted myself at. Murder is by it's own nature neither moral or immoral. In those cases that G-d decreed it immoral it is  immoral and in those situations that G-d demands it, it is moral.

Wow.  Ok.

But you haven't answered my question:

I'm honestly not sure.  That's my answer. 

Let me ask you one:  If your Rov points out a guy on the street and tells you he's a descendant of Amalek and you have a chiyuv to kill him.  Here's a gun.  Would you?

[Hershelsdeals]

I believe so.

And how did that person get a billion of people to believe a fact that never happened?

By the point of a sword

[meshugener]

By the point of a sword

That makes sense

[meshugener]

How did hitler get people to believe that jews are the biggest problem. How did obama get people to believe he'd change America?

They both got people to believe in an idea, not a fact that never happened.

By the way, the Obama/Hitler comparison is not a very nice thing to do.

[meshugener]

Ummm...the Koran was told to Mohammed by an angel...thats the story too. He's got 1.5 Billion followers too.

And do you believe that the character of Mohammad is made up as well?

[aygart]

Did Jesus exist? We dont know. Who the New Testament claims was Jesus is an amalgam of stories from Tanach and possibly the person described as Yeshu in the Gemara. The one from the Gemara cannot be the same one that they claim because, as stated here the dates dont match. And the New Testament was only compiled 150 years after Jesus, if he existed, lived.

That can be simply a mistake in the date and nothing more. Tosafos in Shabbos (don't have exact daf infront of me) discusses some of the timing of Yeshu and Ban Sateda. Note that the article linked above does not accept the gemarah's version either.

[Hershelsdeals]

And do you believe that the character of Mohammad is made up as well?

Another religion founded by the sword, not persuasion.

[hvaces42]

And do you believe that the character of Mohammad is made up as well?

Not at all. There is ample evidence of his existence. He's 600+ years later than Jesus was said to have lived. Much closer to us. There exists a Koran in Turkey from when Mohammed was still alive or from right after his death. Much closer than the 150 years after Jesus.

Emperor Constantine and his mommy had a bit to do with the spread of Christianity in 327.   

[skyguy918]

First of all, it says explicitly if they do not cause bleeding. And what about the rest of the paragraph that implies that R' Moshe moved away from his original position as stated in that first tshuva?

-1 look at the full context.

I stand by what I said, nothing you quoted implies differently to me.

[hvaces42]

That can be simply a mistake in the date and nothing more. Tosafos in Shabbos (don't have exact daf infront of me) discusses some of the timing of Yeshu and Ban Sateda. Note that the article linked above does not accept the gemarah's version either.

Mistake in dates like the 165 years missing in Judaism too? The Gemara was edited in the 500's Hundreds of years after JEsus supposedly lived. The Yeshu that existed was a talmid of R' Yeshua Ben Perachia if I'm not mistaken, who lived prior to the Churban.

[lechatchileh ariber]

Fine.  The thing itself was not always innate, but it's currently innate to society at large. 

How does that work?  The immorality is lifted temporarily?  Was it never immoral?

Is murder of an individual immoral?

[hvaces42]

Bottom line is Jesus was killed, by the Romans, for seditious acts. Not for blasphemy.

And in the Torah, the mekalel was chayiv misah along with the mekoshesh. The only difference is that by the mekoshesh they didnt know what kind of death penalty he was to get. Or did i mix that one up?

[luckyluck]

First of all, it says explicitly if they do not cause bleeding. And what about the rest of the paragraph that implies that R' Moshe moved away from his original position as stated in that first tshuva?

1) We were talking about this mitzva i.e. לערב אל תנח and not about the issue of bleeding.

2) Reb Moshe moved away because of the issue of bleeding and not because of the the relevance of financial issues.

[Aaaron]

Is murder of an individual immoral?

I believe it is.

[luckyluck]

What's exactly all your issues with bleeding? Why not just take pills, make bedikos, and find out if your affected by it or not?