Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...

[Dan]

http://www.businesshalacha.com/sites/default/files/web-file-manager/files/chaburos/advanced/Monsey/El%20Al%20Pricing%20Error/Special%20Topic%20-%20El%20Al%20issue%20-%20Rabbi%20Marburger%20shiur.mp3

Transcription of the last few minutes of the class,

"What would be if you're the one that found out about this mistake? And you knew good and well that this is a mistake. And if this mistake gets out, some yid out there, this company will lose millions upon millions of dollars.  What is your chiyuv at that point?

Your chiyuv at that point is hashovas aveida.  Your chiyuv is not to tweet it to the world. Your chiyuv is to call El Al and be modea them, there's a terrible mistake going on, fix it quickly before you suffer a loss.  If you go ahead and you don't do that, besides the fact that you're not mikayim mitzvas hoshvas aveida youre really being goreim someone else to lose millions upon millions of dollars. And very likely being machshol people in issur onaah.  Lo samod al dam reiecha? B'pashtus that's by nefoshos, but some say it's by momenos as well. 

But to go ahead and your cheshbon is, but you do you mean, if I send it to someone else that person is going to get a bargain. It's very nice, but say this is your brother that had made the mistake, so you call your sister and say quickly take advantage of the mistake that our brother made.  Your sister will be very happy, but one day you're going to meet your father and he's not going to be very happy, what is this you told your sister to take advantage of your brother. 

L'maysoh, kol yisroel areivim zeh l'zeh.  By going ahead and being m'farsem it to one person to take advantage of another person, that is something which is highly questionable. I just saw a quote from one of these sites, where he has all sorts of advice of what to do in these similar situations. One of the pieces of advice was, do not call the airline and ask any questions. Because once you ask questions they're going to start thinking and you're going to ruin it for someone else.

I don't think that is the correct hashkafah, I think if we would recognize the fact that kol yisroel areivim zeh l'zeh, we have an achrayis to another person then certainly what your responsibility is if you realize it is a mistake, call them as quickly as you can, and hopefully prevent them from suffering further losses."

[A3]

First hand I heard from an employee of ELAL, that when him and his co-workers heard of the deal, the First called their family members and told them to book then only after their family booked did they tel their bosses.

Who is Rabbi Marburger?

[Dan]

Feel free to agree or disagree with your reasoning.

I will say that he seems to be lacking in some fundamental concepts.  Please show me how this loss of "millions upon millions of dollars" occurred.  Make for great headlines but it's a total farce IMHO.

-20% of airline seats go out empty.
-The incremental cost of flying someone is close to nil.
-Most people flying on this deal to TLV would otherwise would not be flying.
-Most people are paying an extra $150 to fly nonstop, on top of a ticket that cost $330-$530 round trip.  Hardly the stuff that losses are made of.
-If El Al wanted they could take out ad in jewish papers not to violate onaah.  Instead they are happily honoring the tickets and telling people who call not to cancel because they feel bad.
-The value of the PR they received with news coverage of the deal.

Anyway if an airline has a fare sale greater than 17% off I guess I'm not allowed to talk about it anymore.  Forget the fact that we're dealing with an industry that often has fare sales making the price of a ticket half off or even 75% off at times.

-It's also worth noting that El Al is very likely to go after their 3rd party contractor to collect funds due to their mistake.

[Dan]

Additionally at 38 minutes in he says the DOT regulation "isn't something that it likely to be enforceable in court" and doesn't fall into dina malchusa dina because it's not a "legislative law."

Huh? If there's nothing on the books that says what needs to be done then why are airlines honoring mistake fares after DOT pressure?

[mclovin]

from the mishpacha magazine article

Rav Chaim Kohn of the Business Halacha Institute says from a
halachic perspective, people were permitted to book tickets. “It’s a
strictly regulated industry, and it’s their obligation to bear the responsibility. The price they o!er is their obligation — from a pure
halachic point of view, it’s their problem.”

[menachem]

Feel free to agree with your reasoning.

I will say that he seems to be lacking in some fundamental concepts.  Please show me how this loss of "millions upon millions of dollars" occurred.  Make for great headlines but it's a total farce IMHO.

-20% of airline seats go out empty.
-The incremental cost of flying someone is close to nil.
-Most people flying on this deal to TLV would otherwise would not be flying.
-Most people are paying an extra $150 to fly nonstop, on top of a ticket that cost $330-$530 round trip.  Hardly the stuff that losses are made of.
-If El Al wanted they could take out ad in jewish papers not to violate onaah.  Instead they are happily honoring the tickets and telling people who call not to cancel because they feel bad.
-The value of the PR they received with news coverage of the deal.

Anyway if an airline has a fare sale greater than 17% off I guess I'm not allowed to talk about it anymore.  Forget the fact that we're dealing with an industry that often has fare sales making the price of a ticket half off.

+1 
zeh neheneh, v'zeh lo choser.

And what about when they take our $ and advantage of us?

What does he have to say to them?

[Ergel]

And what about when they take our $ and advantage of us?

What does he have to say to them?

That is meaningless in this discussion

[DH Data Recovery]

I disagree with rabbi Marlboro - although adorama had a huge price mistake on a HP laptop about a month ago, it was an EliteBook that usually sells upward of $1500 and was on sale for $161 - an obvious mistake so I called them and told them about it.

[Saver2000]

That is meaningless in this discussion

+1

[menachem]

+1

How many more can we get?

[mek]

Isnt elal a public company? If some goyim own shares you can always say the loss will come from their part. Like owning shares in a company thats open on shabbos. Maybe r'marburger is upset that he didnt get the tweet

[AJK]

How many more can we get?

Yeah, I'll get in on it. Let's go back to grade school: since when does two wrongs make a right?

[Dan]

Isnt elal a public company? If some goyim own shares you can always say the loss will come from their part. Like owning shares in a company thats open on shabbos. Maybe r'marburger is upset that he didnt get the tweet

Everyone is all worked up about losses...except El Al which isn't losing a thing.

[mek]

Everyone is all worked up about losses...except El Al which isn't losing a thing.

Not saying there was a loss. Just that even if there was a loss (in this case or any other mistake) you could always claim its a public company

[Deal Guy]

Lets pretend he's right. (I'm not going there, im just saying)
Now who said that Dan even knew that it was Elal making the mistake, and not AA or someone else (orbitz)?

[jj1000]

Everyone is all worked up about losses...except El Al which isn't losing a thing.

Ummm I didn't finish listening to the shiur yet, BUT it seems that loss in the case of onah isn't defined by a loss of money but rather a loss of what the market value is. His first case was very clear that if a lady is happy selling a car for $2K if the market value is $3K that is onah. You see the difference? It's not the loss that's the problem its that if these would have been sold then it would be worth about $700 more. Now you will argue, but they would have went unsold. Going back to his example if the old lady wouldn't of been able to sell the car for $3K it doesn't matter the guy that bought it still must pay her an extra thousand...

[Dan]

Ummm I didn't finish listening to the shiur yet, BUT it seems that loss in the case of onah isn't defined by a loss of money but rather a loss of what the market value is. His first case was very clear that if a lady is happy selling a car for $2K if the market value is $3K that is onah. You see the difference? It's not the loss that's the problem its that if these would have been sold then it would be worth about $700 more. Now you will argue, but they would have went unsold. Going back to his example if the old lady wouldn't of been able to sell the car for $3K it doesn't matter the guy that bought it still must pay her an extra thousand...

I'm not arguing about onaah.  He concludes that for most people it's not a problem.

I'm arguing on the final few minutes where he attacks me personally for tweeting something knowing it would cost El Al "millions upon million of dollars."  Never mind the lashon hara aspect when everyone clearly knows who he's talking about. 

[jj1000]

I'm not arguing about onaah.  He concludes that for most people it's not a problem.

I'm arguing on the final few minutes where he attacks me personally for tweeting something knowing it would cost El Al "millions upon million of dollars."  Never mind the lashon hara aspect when everyone clearly knows who he's talking about. 

Gotcha I'll reply in 25 min. when I'm up to there btw it's not lashon hara saying he said lashon hara. Food for thought Also I agree millions is soooo ridiculous to say, you already made excellent points addressing that on the main site and in the yated.... Any clue where this shiur was or what kehila he's from?

[CopyJosh]

No one is 100% wrong or 100% right in this case at it stands now, and reasoning that "the airline didn't really lose that much", "the DOT was putting the pressure on them", "the cost of flying additional passengers is close to nil", etc etc etc is just rhetoric because all of this is only relevant after the fact. This wasn't a 17% off deal, nor even a 50% off deal, this was apprx a 70% off deal in some cases.

The honest thing to do at-the-time, would have been to call El Al, but by no means should anyone have felt required. However, if you personally felt that calling them would have meant the deal would not be honored, than YOU personally should not have halachically booked the ticket.

Say your friend permits you to watch his house while he's out of town. For whatever reason your car won't start, and you know the keys to his car are in the house. You think about borrowing it and you justify to yourself that he would let you if he was here, so you don't feel obligated to ask! Well why not ask? Do you think he'll say no? If he won't say no, then why not ask anyway?

If the airline wanted to sell the tickets at that price, why not call them and book it? Because you think they won't honor the ticket?? Gosh, why would you ever get such an idea?

The issue here is really for people who KNEW the deal was probably bad but booked anyway. Justify it however you want, but if you had a doubt in your mind then that's you'er personal dilemma.

For those who were booking because the offer was there, and had no thought as to the legitimacy, it is definitely back on the responsibility of El Al's due diligence when conducting their business.

I really have nothing at stake in this argument I just think people are not realizing there are several different rationals to consider when judging the right or wrongs of this issue, and that people should not feel like they need to defend themselves for getting a ticket, or to attack those who did if they didn't get one. I think the fact alone that there's a divided "have" and "have-nots" is causing people to take the debate personally when there's no reason anyone should feel "attacked" ...

my 2 cents.

[Ergel]

Ummm I didn't finish listening to the shiur yet, BUT it seems that loss in the case of onah isn't defined by a loss of money but rather a loss of what the market value is. His first case was very clear that if a lady is happy selling a car for $2K if the market value is $3K that is onah. You see the difference? It's not the loss that's the problem its that if these would have been sold then it would be worth about $700 more. Now you will argue, but they would have went unsold. Going back to his example if the old lady wouldn't of been able to sell the car for $3K it doesn't matter the guy that bought it still must pay her an extra thousand...

If she couldn't have sold it for $3K, doesn't that mean the market value isn't $3K? FWIU market value is determined by what you could sell something for, not some random valuation