Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...

[rots5]

did he refute this:
There is a third factor, however, which may be very pertinent here.  If one looks closely at this particular sale, the price of the ticket was not, in fact, below market.  The reason why the total cost of the ticket was so much lower than usual was the fact that the fuel surcharges were not included in the pricing. When someone does not charge an additional fee that is not part of the sale, but rather is construed as an extraneous cost, not charging it would not negate the sale (See Responsa of the Rosh 13:20 for a similar issue).

or he just "said" seems like a lot of "talk" but very little quoting (just saying)

Yea he did. I specifically asked about the fuel charges. He said it's just another add on but the market value is not 350 a ticket. He said it's 800% more (mark is that right:-) of onah   he then said even if you want to count the onah just on the fuel it's still more than 17%.  Though he did ask to see some responses on this thread tom  and will ask him about that rosh too

[rots5]

I'm sorry, it's mis quoted. It means in terms of the halachos of onah and hashuvas avaida which was asked before

[AsherO]

If you guys keep calling it onah I'm going to have to start telling you about how YQ is us getting screwed by the airlines...

[rots5]

If you guys keep calling it onah I'm going to have to start telling you about how YQ is us getting screwed by the airlines...

Lol    Litterarlly. Lol.  Sorry u know what we mean :-)

[boruch]

I'm curious to know how ppl/rabonim calculate the market value of any ticket.

[Dan]

I'm curious to know how ppl/rabonim calculate the market value of any ticket.

Beats me, the whole reason for the DOT reg is that there is no market value for a plane ticket.
And the reason UA may get away with not honoring the HKG deal is precisely because there is a published market value for mileage tickets.

[rots5]

Beats me, the whole reason for the DOT reg is that there is no market value for a plane ticket.
And the reason UA may get away with not honoring the HKG deal is precisely because there is a published market value for mileage tickets.

Dan I asked my rebbe that I said how can you tell me that's not market value.  He said c'mon what do you think? A regular ticket with el al is not that cheap   Haraya if you offered them to cancel I they would in a heartbeat bec it's not what the market value is.

(don't get me wrong he said he tried getting his parents tickets. But he was trying to explain what rabbi marburger was saying) :-)

[Lamdan]

If someone publicly does something, and someone else says what he did was asur, is that Lashon Hara? I don't think so. Ask your LOR.

[Ergel]

If you guys keep calling it onah I'm going to have to start telling you about how YQ is us getting screwed by the airlines...

I was waiting for a good one

[jj1000]

If someone publicly does something, and someone else says what he did was asur, is that Lashon Hara? I don't think so. Ask your LOR.

You are probably right. Difference being this is far worse than lashon hara because it is motzei shem rah. He made up what Dan's intention was and what he was thinking when he sent out the tweet. Most definitely not being dan li'kav zechus and choshech bi'kesharim. Of course I am saying lashon hara about him but ya...

[Dan]

Dan I asked my rebbe that I said how can you tell me that's not market value.  He said c'mon what do you think? A regular ticket with el al is not that cheap   Haraya if you offered them to cancel I they would in a heartbeat bec it's not what the market value is.

(don't get me wrong he said he tried getting his parents tickets. But he was trying to explain what rabbi marburger was saying) :-)

Everyone who offered to cancel due to halacha/feeling bad for LY was told not to worry about it, even when speaking to supervisors.

[JEWDA]

You are probably right. Difference being this is far worse than lashon hara because it is motzei shem rah. He made up what Dan's intention was and what he was thinking when he sent out the tweet. Most definitely not being dan li'kav zechus and choshech bi'kesharim. Of course I am saying lashon hara about him but ya...

Dark knots?

[Ergel]

If someone publicly does something, and someone else says what he did was asur, is that Lashon Hara? I don't think so. Ask your LOR.

Unless someone is a mumar,, i'm pretty sure you're wrong

[bubbles]

Curious do all the calculations of why they are not really losing money apply to the ppl flying on the partner airlines (which is what the actual mistake was at the time before doing damage control)?

[jj1000]

Dark knots?

Ya something like that. Or a yeshivish variation there of.

[smart brit]

There is no respectable rabbi that would say its assur. And to make assumptions and accusations against someone else is definitely assur

[dirah]

I would have liked to be מעיין in this, but there is just not enough time in the day. Oh well...
Just some comments/questions:

1. I see people discussing אונאה, I don't know how this is אונאה, it is a טעות.
אונאה is when the seller (or buyer) is not aware of the true market value, here they were aware, and just made a mistake.
This point changes the dynamics of the whole issue.
השבת אבידה is much more applicable here, as in the OP. The issue of הצלה מהפסד is an offshoot of השבת אבדה, not אונאה.

[2. I wonder if אונאה would even apply to a service provided, as opposed to sale (or rental) of goods. An airline flight is technically a service, not the purchase of merchandise.

3. אונאה can be נמחל. So, if the whole issue here was only אונאה, there would be no problem to keep the ticket after El-Al announced that they are honoring them.]

[jj1000]

I would have liked to be מעיין in this, but there is just not enough time in the day. Oh well...
Just some comments/questions:

1. I see people discussing אונאה, I don't know how this is אונאה, it is a טעות.
אונאה is when the seller (or buyer) is not aware of the true market value, here they were aware, and just made a mistake.
This point changes the dynamics of the whole issue.
השבת אבידה is much more applicable here, as in the OP. The issue of הצלה מהפסד is an offshoot of השבת אבדה, not אונאה.

[2. I wonder if אונאה would even apply to a service provided, as opposed to sale (or rental) of goods. An airline flight is technically a service, not the purchase of merchandise.

3. אונאה can be נמחל. So, if the whole issue here was only אונאה, there would be no problem to keep the ticket after El-Al announced that they are honoring them.]

Did you listen to the shiur? your points 2 and 3 were clearly addressed. IIRC

[Lamdan]

Did you listen to the shiur? your points 2 and 3 were clearly addressed. IIRC

+1

[dirah]

Did you listen to the shiur? your points 2 and 3 were clearly addressed. IIRC

No, I didn't, will get there IYH eventually.
But what about point 1?
If that is correct, then points 2 and 3 become irrelevant.