Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...

[Lamdan]

I would have liked to be מעיין in this, but there is just not enough time in the day. Oh well...
Just some comments/questions:

1. I see people discussing אונאה, I don't know how this is אונאה, it is a טעות.
אונאה is when the seller (or buyer) is not aware of the true market value, here they were aware, and just made a mistake.
This point changes the dynamics of the whole issue.
השבת אבידה is much more applicable here, as in the OP. The issue of הצלה מהפסד is an offshoot of השבת אבדה, not אונאה.

[2. I wonder if אונאה would even apply to a service provided, as opposed to sale (or rental) of goods. An airline flight is technically a service, not the purchase of merchandise.

3. אונאה can be נמחל. So, if the whole issue here was only אונאה, there would be no problem to keep the ticket after El-Al announced that they are honoring them.]

I never learned Ona'ah beiyun, but I can see a question of ona'ah, because both are s/o thinking that they're charging the fair market price, but really getting paid below, in the classic case of ona'ah, the seller thinks that the low price was the market price, by ELAL, they thought that their system was charging the market price, but it wasn't. Again, this is pilpula be'alma. @Dirah, am I way off the mark?, it seems like you know the inyan.

[dirah]

Both are s/o thinking that they're charging the fair market price, but really getting paid below, in the classic case of ona'ah, the seller thinks that the low price was the market price, by ELAL, they thought that their system was charging the market price, but it wasn't. Again, this is pilpula be'alma. @Dirah, am I way off the mark?, it seems like you know the inyan.

By אונאה, the seller charged what he intended to charge, and is just mistaken about the price.
Over here, the issue is that the seller did not charge what he intended to charge, even though he was not mistaken about the price.

[michael]

I don't want to get involved in all the mudslinging, but I feel compelled to at least write something to defend the honor of a talmid chochom. I dealt with Rabbi Marburger several times, and not only is he a very knowledgeable person, but he is a tremendous ba'al middos as well. He has great knowledge about the intricacies of many businesses, and he frequently advises hedge funds and other businesses on complying with various halachos. He once came to my law school to speak on the topic of a heter iska, and his knowledge of corporate law was impressive.

Once again, I don't know the specifics of the shiur, or the specifics of the airline industry. However, I do know the specifics of the person you are attacking. Please, please, stop with the personal attacks.

[dirah]

On further thought, since there is a contractor involved, there is also the concept of לתקוני שדרתיך ולא לעוותי.
Of course, this leads to the famous מחלוקת הראשונים who loses out as a result, the שליח or the לוקח.
If the שליח loses out, here they were נכרים, so no issue, presumably even לכתחילה.
However, I believe that the הלכה is that the לוקח loses out.
I haven't listened to the Shiur, just putting it out there in case it hasn't been discussed.

[elikay]

I would have liked to be מעיין in this, but there is just not enough time in the day. Oh well...
Just some comments/questions:

1. I see people discussing אונאה, I don't know how this is אונאה, it is a טעות.
אונאה is when the seller (or buyer) is not aware of the true market value, here they were aware, and just made a mistake.

I believe that there is a Gemara in Bava Basra (I will have to look for it) which states that yafos venimtzeu raos nisaana lokeach, raos venimtzeu yafos nisana mocher. 

[jj1000]

I don't want to get involved in all the mudslinging, but I feel compelled to at least write something to defend the honor of a talmid chochom. I dealt with Rabbi Marburger several times, and not only is he a very knowledgeable person, but he is a tremendous ba'al middos as well. He has great knowledge about the intricacies of many businesses, and he frequently advises hedge funds and other businesses on complying with various halachos. He once came to my law school to speak on the topic of a heter iska, and his knowledge of corporate law was impressive.

Once again, I don't know the specifics of the shiur, or the specifics of the airline industry. However, I do know the specifics of the person you are attacking. Please, please, stop with the personal attacks.

Your endorsement of Rabbi Marburger is very nice, and I am sure he is a great talmid chachom. Additionally there really was only 1 person who insulted him. My problem is I don't know him or you. All I know is he ended a shiur which was given publicly with motzei sham rah about a fellow yid. If you could be so kind as to ask him to give a public apology or at least ask Dan directly for mechila it may serve everyone's best interest.

[elikay]

Its a Mishna on פ"ג עמוד ב

[michael]

Your endorsement of Rabbi Marburger is very nice, and I am sure he is a great talmid chachom. Additionally there really was only 1 person who insulted him. My problem is I don't know him or you. All I know is he ended a shiur which was given publicly with motzei sham rah about a fellow yid. If you could be so kind as to ask him to give a public apology or at least ask Dan directly for mechila it may serve everyone's best interest.

I don't know him that well. Regardless, even if I were to ask him to apologize, he would easily refute any claims that I could make against him, given the wealth of halachic knowledge that he has. I'm sure that he knows hilchos lashon hara/motzei shem ra as well.

[dirah]

1. I see people discussing אונאה, I don't know how this is אונאה, it is a טעות.
אונאה is when the seller (or buyer) is not aware of the true market value, here they were aware, and just made a mistake.
This point changes the dynamics of the whole issue.
השבת אבידה is much more applicable here, as in the OP. The issue of הצלה מהפסד is an offshoot of השבת אבדה, not אונאה.

I believe that there is a Gemara in Bava Basra (I will have to look for it) which states that yafos venimtzeu raos nisaana lokeach, raos venimtzeu yafos nisana mocher. 

Its a Mishna on פ"ג עמוד ב

When properly cited, that actually supports what I wrote earlier.
The משנה does not mention אונאה.
And, see the רשב"ם:

אפילו הכי הכא גבי יפות ונמצאו רעות כ"ע מודו דיכול לחזור שהרי הטעהו ולא היה דעתו ליקח רעות אבל גבי אונאת שתות שקנה מה שרוצה לקנות וליכא שום טעות אלא מכירת יוקר התם מחזיר אונאה משום דכתיב אל תונו אבל המקח קיים כרבי נתן וכדפסק רבא

[elikay]

אפילו הכי הכא גבי יפות ונמצאו רעות כ"ע מודו דיכול לחזור שהרי הטעהו ולא היה דעתו ליקח רעות אבל גבי אונאת שתות שקנה מה שרוצה לקנות וליכא שום טעות אלא מכירת יוקר התם מחזיר אונאה משום דכתיב אל תונו אבל המקח קיים כרבי נתן וכדפסק רבא

   

Rashbam clearly calls it אונאה:
התנה לו למכור חטים יפות ונמצאו רעות אין זה מקח טעות שיוכלו שניהם לחזור שהרי חטין התנה לו למכור וחטין מכרו ואי משום דרעות נינהו אין זו אלא אונאה כגון אונאת שתות ויכול לוקח לחזור שהרי נתאנה אבל מוכר שלא נתאנה לא יכול לחזור אפי' אם הוקיר השער דבשעת מכירה לא נתאנה הוא אלא לוקח
the whole shayla is regarding whether יחזיר אונאה or not.
See also Shulchan Aruch סימו רל"ג, who writes that it is onaah and only the person who was cheated can be חוזר.

[rots5]

Everyone who offered to cancel due to halacha/feeling bad for LY was told not to worry about it, even when speaking to supervisors.

of course dan, as my rebbe ended off saying, there was 2 ways el al couldve gone, they couldve been like united and finagle their way outta the tickets, or they do this honor them and even upgrade to direct, which makes them look like tzadikim, butone thing (my rebbe cont) is forsure, they were sort of forced into the 'mechila' (as he called it) weather it be bec od public eye or bec they have plans to sue expedia or even bec they realized there still making money, but he said we have to agree they were forced into it, and a mechilla bal karcha might not be a full mechilla as he said,

he was not paskining bec he said i didnt buy them but if someone would call he'll have to then, but he def understood what r' marburgr was coming from, weather or not it was right or not that ill leave up for the boards, but dan, lets say i owned an electronic store and i was away on vaca and u walked in and saw that there was grill for 20 bucks, would you be allowed to buy it?   my rebbe gave me a similar mashul, BUT he did say its very diff btw a frum person or not, thats why he fully cant agree with rabbi marburger but he def understands where he might be coming from,

[Dan]

of course dan, as my rebbe ended off saying, there was 2 ways el al couldve gone, they couldve been like united and finagle their way outta the tickets, or they do this honor them and even upgrade to direct, which makes them look like tzadikim, butone thing (my rebbe cont) is forsure, they were sort of forced into the 'mechila' (as he called it) weather it be bec od public eye or bec they have plans to sue expedia or even bec they realized there still making money, but he said we have to agree they were forced into it, and a mechilla bal karcha might not be a full mechilla as he said,

If they were really forced then why tell honest people trying to cancel over the phone not to cancel?
And why not take out an ad in frum newspapers that al pi halacha people should cancel?

he was not paskining bec he said i didnt buy them but if someone would call he'll have to then, but he def understood what r' marburgr was coming from, weather or not it was right or not that ill leave up for the boards, but dan, lets say i owned an electronic store and i was away on vaca and u walked in and saw that there was grill for 20 bucks, would you be allowed to buy it?   my rebbe gave me a similar mashul, BUT he did say its very diff btw a frum person or not, thats why he fully cant agree with rabbi marburger but he def understands where he might be coming from,

I mean absolutely no offense, but if my rov gave me a moshul of a $1,000 grill for sale for $20 to this airline ticket situation I would start looking for a new rov.

The differences are night and day.

[rots5]

I mean absolutely no offense, but if my rov gave me a moshul of a $1,000 grill for sale for $20 to this airline ticket situation I would start looking for a new rov.

he didnt he was trying to point out to the frum to non frum, sorry that was just the part of the story

[Dan]

he didnt he was trying to point out to the frum to non frum, sorry that was just the part of the story

I'm not buying into the frum thing.

I wouldn't and haven't posted price mistakes from jewish stores in the past.  Sales of goods like that can cause a real loss.  This as explained ad nauseum, isn't a good, doesn't carry a real loss, was caused by a goy, left out a compenant of the fare that is not a requirement for there to be a sale of a ticket, gained them tons of good PR that money can't buy, they're cleverly collecting $150 per person from most people to save them even more money, etc, etc.

[rots5]

I'm not buying into the frum thing.

I wouldn't and haven't posted price mistakes from jewish stores in the past.  Sales of goods like that can cause a real loss.  This as explained ad nauseum, isn't a good, doesn't carry a real loss, was caused by a goy, left out a compenant of the fare that is not a requirement for there to be a sale of a ticket, gained them tons of good PR that money can't buy, they're cleverly collecting $150 per person from most people to save them even more money, etc, etc.

dan i think were on the same page, excpet on the frum non frum, (he is not my rav hes my rebbe, but he happens to be a rav where he lives) though i will ask my first sedar rebbe in 20 min when i get to yesh, who will give me some mar makomos about the diff btw fum and non, though why dont u buy into it, i would like to say that to him so he can give me concrete answer back. that is exactly what i stated as well, in the end they are loving it bec they are looked at in the world as the biggest tzaddikim,

[Dan]

It's not that I don't buy the halachic difference of frum/not frum, I'm just not comfortable resorting to that being the difference when there are plenty of ther reasons for this to be quite an irregular situation and not as clear cut as some people are making it out to be without fully studying all of the facts at hand.

[rots5]

It's not that I don't buy the halachic difference of frum/not frum, I'm just not comfortable resorting to that being the difference when there are plenty of ther reasons for this to be quite an irregular situation and not as clear cut as some people are making it out to be without fully studying all of the facts at hand.

ok that sounds good to me :-)   also my rebbe i spoke to last night wants the hsuir, he wants to see how r' marburger put it and i will give it to him later today, dan he doesnt know all the inns and outs of the situation, but i think he was saying more on a general topic as well, that there is more room to be maikul BEC its non frum, will get back to you later with both. thanks. and once again dan, thank you so much for helping US (the world/jews/me) out its really so appreciated! have a gr8 night and me a good mornnig

[shmuelb]

If they were really forced then why tell honest people trying to cancel over the phone not to cancel?
And why not take out an ad in frum newspapers that al pi halacha people should cancel?

I mean absolutely no offense, but if my rov gave me a moshul of a $1,000 grill for sale for $20 to this airline ticket situation I would start looking for a new rov.

The differences are night and day.

1. This is not a new question - what authority does a CSR have? Is she the owner that she can be mochel? If they are told that ppl can make changes etc. so that is what they are doing. They can be apologetic.
2. It looks stupid to put ads in the paper etc. it looks bad for the company so that still does not prove that they are mochel.
3. I asked before - if the tickets would be for $100 then would you still have the same taanos? You are pointing out that there was not such a huge loss as estimated by some. L'maase - do you really think/know that they had no loss? What about the seats over chanuka time? You are conjecturing that it is not so bad because of all the different reasons but it does not mean that there was no loss to them. Is there a difference to you if they lost $2M or 500k?
4. Please don't get so offended by what a Rav said about you, taking offense and demanding mechila. I don't know you personally but if you can, let it go. He surely did not mean it personally against you. He could have called you before. Are you on white pages with a phone number? Is that your house in the attached pic? You could have called him before you wrote the OP. What's done is done. IMHO, do not feel so bad, call him, whatever, but do not get mad at him.
Shalom al Yisroel (Yesterday's daf?)

[rots5]

dan, like i said id speak to my first sedar ebbe, so he said the frum non frum is more of a shiala and its not so pashut. and he said just like you that they did gain a tremendous amount, and so on.... but here comes the funniest part of my conversation,

he said i dont wanna paskin on choshen mishpat, if you want mar makomos ill give them, though there is a rabbi marburger who does paskin and he sits right there usually, his brother wrote some sefer on choshen mishpat who is also very learned...... i burst out laughing!! u cant make this stuff up!! :-)   thought id share this funny maiseh 

[Jkhein]

Trust me your rabbi killed it with this frum non frum sheila!