Author Topic: Stocks  (Read 280199 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3090 on: March 28, 2018, 09:19:47 PM »



But realistically, last time I checked antitrust laws were made to protect consumers

Lol
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Ephraimh

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Stocks
« Reply #3091 on: March 28, 2018, 09:29:09 PM »

Lol
Youíre welcome. Whatís your point besides you laughing out loud?

Youíre probably gearing up with an entire history lesson on how and why the act was passed back in 1800ís

Bottom line is that antitrust is meant to protect the consumer, and amazon isnít  something consumers have to be protected from, quite the opposite.

Offline Yammer

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3092 on: March 28, 2018, 10:12:53 PM »
This has nothing to do with the privacy issues that people are busy with. I do not know the legalities of it to be able to give an opinion on the likelihood. Do you?

When was the last time that a company of that magnitude had a court decide in a way that brought the company to it's knees?

Amazon can get in the same kind of problem if the US govt decides its a monopoly than it will end up where microsoft after their anti trust... They are still not there but could be there 1 day



Itís a bit far fetched though, Trump is likely leaking this because itís his only way he thinks he can possibly impact the Washington Posts coverage of him.

But realistically, last time I checked antitrust laws were made to protect consumers and I donít think there are too many companies that so positively impacted the consumer like amazon did in recent years,
And besides, amazon may be swallowing up the online retail space, but have you checked out a small unknown company called Walmart? Check out their market share in non-online retail, check out their revenue vs Amazons revenue, why are they not in danger with anti trust laws?

The Washington Post will put up a few nice articles about Trump and all the anti trust and no taxes paid talk will vanish into thin air.

The whole thing is hoax.

Not so sure that Monopoly laws aren't applicable with Amazon. However just like Google and Microsoft have paid Billions in fines and are still going strong..it's not going to stop them...

Offline aygart

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3093 on: March 28, 2018, 10:28:34 PM »
When was the last time that a company of that magnitude had a court decide in a way that brought the company to it's knees?



Not so sure that Monopoly laws aren't applicable with Amazon. However just like Google and Microsoft have paid Billions in fines and are still going strong..it's not going to stop them...
It would not happen immediately but can hurt significantly over the long term. Usually they would start settling and then change their practices to no longer be publishers
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Offline Ephraimh

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3094 on: March 28, 2018, 10:45:35 PM »
Not so sure that Monopoly laws aren't applicable with Amazon. However just like Google and Microsoft have paid Billions in fines and are still going strong..it's not going to stop them...
Well of course you can make any type of legal case on anything under the sun, but Microsoft had a real monopoly back then, and I donít think they denied the fact that they were pushing and manipulating people into their browser and stuff, and even then, the conservative right (current congress?) sided with Microsoft.

Fast forward to today, Amazon doesnít really have a monopoly in retail, again check out Walmarts revenue vs. amazons and tell me who has the monopoly.

They might control online retail, but unlike Microsoft back in the day when they literally slowed down their competitors browsers on a platform they owned in order to push their own, Amazon simply provides the consumer with a better experience on the public web, amazon doesnít own the web (ask Al Gore!) the way Microsoft owned windows back then.

Macyís has the same right to operate online, Jet.com actually did that and now that Walmart owns them theyíre giving amazon a run for their money,

So amazon doesnít manipulate nada.

Again, was Apple violating anti trust because they provided a better product and crushed Nokia? No. Same with Amazon.

Itís a leveled playing field.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3095 on: March 28, 2018, 11:10:43 PM »
But realistically, last time I checked antitrust laws were made to protect consumers and I donít think there are too many companies that so positively impacted the consumer like amazon did in recent years,

Until everyone is quashed and Amazon raises their prices to start making money on ecommerce.

Quote
And besides, amazon may be swallowing up the online retail space, but have you checked out a small unknown company called Walmart? Check out their market share in non-online retail, check out their revenue vs Amazons revenue, why are they not in danger with anti trust laws?

How about comparing apples to apples: Amazon's % of total ecommerce sales vs Walmart's % of total B&M sales.
Percentage wise Amazon blows Walmart away.
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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3096 on: March 28, 2018, 11:14:46 PM »
It would not happen immediately but can hurt significantly over the long term. Usually they would start settling and then change their practices to no longer be publishers
I agree that they may be hurt.

My issue was/is with the claim that they will be sued into obliviation.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3097 on: March 28, 2018, 11:16:10 PM »
Well of course you can make any type of legal case on anything under the sun, but Microsoft had a real monopoly back then, and I donít think they denied the fact that they were pushing and manipulating people into their browser and stuff, and even then, the conservative right (current congress?) sided with Microsoft.

Fast forward to today, Amazon doesnít really have a monopoly in retail, again check out Walmarts revenue vs. amazons and tell me who has the monopoly.

They might control online retail, but unlike Microsoft back in the day when they literally slowed down their competitors browsers on a platform they owned in order to push their own, Amazon simply provides the consumer with a better experience on the public web, amazon doesnít own the web (ask Al Gore!) the way Microsoft owned windows back then.

Macyís has the same right to operate online, Jet.com actually did that and now that Walmart owns them theyíre giving amazon a run for their money,

So amazon doesnít manipulate nada.

Again, was Apple violating anti trust because they provided a better product and crushed Nokia? No. Same with Amazon.

Itís a leveled playing field.

Just because someone can open up an online shop in 5 minutes does not mean they can compete. Amazon Prime/FBA is a true force to reckon with. Currently ~50% of shopping searches START on Amazon. If in 5 years from now Walmart does not succeed in its online battle against Amazon I think we will see an anti-trust suit case opened against Amazon.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3098 on: March 28, 2018, 11:18:27 PM »
For anyone who has too much time on their hands, read this abut the Amazon anti-trust debate:
https://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/amazons-antitrust-paradox
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Offline Yammer

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3099 on: March 28, 2018, 11:31:37 PM »
Well of course you can make any type of legal case on anything under the sun, but Microsoft had a real monopoly back then, and I donít think they denied the fact that they were pushing and manipulating people into their browser and stuff, and even then, the conservative right (current congress?) sided with Microsoft.

Fast forward to today, Amazon doesnít really have a monopoly in retail, again check out Walmarts revenue vs. amazons and tell me who has the monopoly.

They might control online retail, but unlike Microsoft back in the day when they literally slowed down their competitors browsers on a platform they owned in order to push their own, Amazon simply provides the consumer with a better experience on the public web, amazon doesnít own the web (ask Al Gore!) the way Microsoft owned windows back then.

Macyís has the same right to operate online, Jet.com actually did that and now that Walmart owns them theyíre giving amazon a run for their money,

So amazon doesnít manipulate nada.

Again, was Apple violating anti trust because they provided a better product and crushed Nokia? No. Same with Amazon.

Itís a leveled playing field.

1) Amazon undercuts their own sellers using the data to sell bestsellers. They then undercut the sellers price since they don't have the Amazon fees.

2) Tax enforcement

3) Alexa war with Google.

4) Amazon web services ( which many have claimed that they were mining the data )

5) Publishing/books. ( There were issues in the past  (a few years ago with a dispute with the  # 3 publisher a few years ago

6) Workers rights.


These are just off the top of my head. Again not to take them out but to make their lives misrable

Offline Ephraimh

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3100 on: March 28, 2018, 11:34:16 PM »
Until everyone is quashed and Amazon raises their prices to start making money on ecommerce.
How will they then stop you from selling on the open web at a cheaper price? They donít own the web the way Microsoft owned Windows.
How about comparing apples to apples: Amazon's % of total ecommerce sales vs Walmart's % of total B&M sales.
Percentage wise Amazon blows Walmart away.
Good point.
But do you really manipulate something when you only manipulate a very small portion of an industry as a whole?
Just because someone can open up an online shop in 5 minutes does not mean they can compete. Amazon Prime/FBA is a true force to reckon with. Currently ~50% of shopping searches START on Amazon. If in 5 years from now Walmart does not succeed in its online battle against Amazon I think we will see an anti-trust suit case opened against Amazon.
Maybe.
But again, if Walmart loses the online war itís because they didnít please the consumer on the same level amazon did, and that would be their own problem, not because Walmart was unable to compete, the World Wide Web is a leveled playing field unlike windows OS back in the day.

Offline Ephraimh

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3101 on: March 28, 2018, 11:49:22 PM »
1) Amazon undercuts their own sellers using the data to sell bestsellers. They then undercut the sellers price since they don't have the Amazon fees.

2) Tax enforcement

3) Alexa war with Google.

4) Amazon web services ( which many have claimed that they were mining the data )

5) Publishing/books. ( There were issues in the past  (a few years ago with a dispute with the  # 3 publisher a few years ago

6) Workers rights.


These are just off the top of my head. Again not to take them out but to make their lives misrable
1. What stops the seller from selling on Walmart.com?

2. Ok. But check out GE and their tax situation, itís the way capitalism is, itís the way it is, nothing to do with anti trust.

3. Ok. And what now? How about Samsungís war with Apple?

4. Microsoft is winning the cloud computing war right now.

5. Meh

6. Also meh

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3102 on: March 29, 2018, 12:02:05 AM »
How will they then stop you from selling on the open web at a cheaper price? They donít own the web the way Microsoft owned Windows.Good point.

They have an extremely efficient fulfillment network and discounted shipping fees that a startup can never compete with.

Quote
But do you really manipulate something when you only manipulate a very small portion of an industry as a whole?Maybe.

Everyone knows that online will not be a very small portion in the future. Why wait for it to become an unstoppable behemoth? From the article I posted: "pegging anticompetitive harm to high prices and/or lower outputówhile disregarding the market structure and competitive process that give rise to this market powerórestricts intervention to the moment when a company has already acquired sufficient dominance to distort competition. This approach is misguided because it is much easier to promote competition at the point when a market risks becoming less competitive than it is at the point when a market is no longer competitive."

Quote
But again, if Walmart loses the online war itís because they didnít please the consumer on the same level amazon did, and that would be their own problem, not because Walmart was unable to compete, the World Wide Web is a leveled playing field unlike windows OS back in the day.

Walmart rose to dominance because they made their warehouses and distribution centers extremely efficient for B&M retail (similar to why Amazon dominates ecom). Implementing an online strategy on top of the existing infrastructure is extremely difficult, and requires either using inefficient infrastructure or building out completely new infrastructure just to start catching up. That's why you should ignore their B&M sales when discussing online. They're still figuring out online, and will need more than just money to compete.

Amazon is trying to build out the retail infrastructure for every retailer online, which in itself is fine. But since they are competing as sellers themselves, and they give themselves major advantages, it raises questions whether we're heading to a future where Amazon cannot be competed against.
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Offline Ephraimh

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3103 on: March 29, 2018, 12:32:48 AM »
They have an extremely efficient fulfillment network and discounted shipping fees that a startup can never compete with.

Everyone knows that online will not be a very small portion in the future. Why wait for it to become an unstoppable behemoth? From the article I posted: "pegging anticompetitive harm to high prices and/or lower outputówhile disregarding the market structure and competitive process that give rise to this market powerórestricts intervention to the moment when a company has already acquired sufficient dominance to distort competition. This approach is misguided because it is much easier to promote competition at the point when a market risks becoming less competitive than it is at the point when a market is no longer competitive."

Walmart rose to dominance because they made their warehouses and distribution centers extremely efficient for B&M retail (similar to why Amazon dominates ecom). Implementing an online strategy on top of the existing infrastructure is extremely difficult, and requires either using inefficient infrastructure or building out completely new infrastructure just to start catching up. That's why you should ignore their B&M sales when discussing online. They're still figuring out online, and will need more than just money to compete.

Amazon is trying to build out the retail infrastructure for every retailer online, which in itself is fine. But since they are competing as sellers themselves, and they give themselves major advantages, it raises questions whether we're heading to a future where Amazon cannot be competed against.
I didnít read the article yet, but the way I look at it is, every industry has its leader and then the competitors. some with bigger gaps some with smaller gaps, 3 examples:

Airlines no real leader small gaps.
Visa vs MC medium gap.
Nike vs UA huge gap.

Iíd put Amazon vs Walmart and Target in the Nike territory, huge gap, but ability to compete, might be super hard to compete and the gap will always be huge, but so what? Try opening a brand to compete with Nike let me know how that goes.

You couldnít compete with Microsoft when the only place to run a browser was on their OS. the gap was 99.99 to.01 with those other operating systems.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Stocks
« Reply #3104 on: March 29, 2018, 12:48:44 AM »
I have no position (long or short) in FB nor am I a user (other than WhatsApp, where I don't see any monetization).

Remember US Robotics? How about Research In Motion?

Those companies had products/platforms that at their time were ubiquitous, and ruled the market. There were other players in the social media space (pun intended) that many can barely remember.

Unlike Google (Alphabet) that is truly ubiquitous, and does everything to get into everyone's life, FB seems to be limited to its platform(s) of which one is either a user, or isn't.

Remember the outcry when people were losing their Google accounts? You think anyone would really care that much if they lost access to FB? Especially now?

I don't know what will happen. I am unfamiliar with the management team. I don't really follow the company. But I will not be surprised if a few short years from now it will be a memory like Palm Pilots (or should I say Pilot 3, which IINM was the last one produced under the US Robotics brand) or Blackberries.

I guess I should have been mentioning Moshiach in my post.

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/3/28/17174080/palm-smartphone-verizon-tcl-android
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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