The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live

[Emkay]

But in that situation, would it be chinuch in NYC, davka not NYC, or it doesn't make a difference?

Dafka not Israel. 

[David Smith]

@cs1, Brooklyn has many schools to choose from so I'm not sure how you could say low quality.

If you have more than one choice, they're automatically all bad. Trust him; he's tried them all.

[Zevi16]

Dafka not Israel. 

Do you feel 'settled' in Israel?

Overall quality of life here is significantly better in my opinion. If there is any reason that I would move back to the treife Medina it would be for chinuch.

[Emkay]

Do you feel 'settled' in Israel?

Most definitely.  I am settled.

[Zevi16]

Most definitely.  I am settled.

I find that and the lack of basics the hard part here. I don't have a kid of chinuch age yet

[Emkay]

I find that and the lack of basics the hard part here. I don't have a kid of chinuch age yet

I dont see a lack of basics at all.

[CS1]

@cs1, Brooklyn has many schools to choose from so I'm not sure how you could say low quality.

brooklyn also has single family homes, backyards, and high-quality schools. However, we were showing how 'materialism' is not the motivator when choosing a place to live.

It's if one finds his family in a small 3 bedroom apt and a not-great NY school, then the options to move to a place like CLE with a 4 BR house with backyard and good schools is not an option of materialism but for better chinuch and a less-cramped daily life.

[Zevi16]

I dont see a lack of basics at all.

I guess it all boils down to being settled. Too long to explain

[David Smith]

brooklyn also has single family homes, backyards, and high-quality schools. However, we were showing how 'materialism' is not the motivator when choosing a place to live.

It's if one finds his family in a small 3 bedroom apt and a not-great NY school, then the options to move to a place like CLE with a 4 BR house with backyard and good schools is not an option of materialism but for better chinuch and a less-cramped daily life.

Yes. One could move to CLE and enroll his kids in a great local school. Or one could move to CLE and enroll his kids in the local public school. Or one could put on a clown nose and a tutu and dance on the roof of a bright yellow mini cooper. Or one could enroll his kids in a quality Brooklyn school. One has many choices in life. Which one seems the most practical is up to you.

[churnbabychurn]

Dafka not Israel. 

What on earth is wrong with the chinuch in Israel?
There are plenty of great mosdos. -unless you are a non-conforming chutznick?

[skyguy918]

+1
that part needs a new thread, however when choosing a place to live and deciding that it's better for your family to live in a 4 BR, 2 BA, single family home with a backyard and good local chinuch over a small 3 BR, 1 BA apt in Brooklyn with no yard and cramped, low-quality schools, then that's not materialism. It's going somewhere better for your family to learn and grow.

In fact, it's the opposite of materialism, as the jobs may not pay as well, and there are less Kosher restaurants and amenities. We trade in some of that for the benefit of our family's chinuch/upbringing.

You mention 2 'pros' for OOT, then pivot to the one that suits your point, instead of the one that undermines it. If each person thinks their schools are better, but one lives in an apt and the other a spacious house (let's say for the same money), the one in the apt has the much better case for saying they chose where to live based on chinuch. It's harder to claim that you moved OOT for the chinuch when it just happens to come with a gashmiyus advantage in housing.

I'm not ch'v suggesting that everyone moving OOT is doing so only to have more space, or that everyone in town is consciously sacrificing housing comfort for chinuch. But if you're going to frame the argument that way, you can't conveniently ignore the fact that OOT is a gashmiyus upgrade from a housing standpoint.

[Emkay]

What on earth is wrong with the chinuch in Israel?
There are plenty of great mosdos. -unless you are a non-conforming chutznick?

I dont have the patience to articulate now but to quote one of the DDF legends.

It might be a nice idea to live there, but once your kid has to go to school you don't want them to get messed up.
Like an old friend used to tell me: Do you want to hate your kids?

[David Smith]

What on earth is wrong with the chinuch in Israel?
There are plenty of great mosdos. -unless you are a non-conforming chutznick?

Sounds like you have plenty of experience raising kids (from American families) in the Israeli system.

[CS1]

...
I'm not ch'v suggesting that everyone moving OOT is doing so only to have more space, or that everyone in town is consciously sacrificing housing comfort for chinuch. But if you're going to frame the argument that way, you can't conveniently ignore the fact that OOT is a gashmiyus upgrade from a housing standpoint.

-1
that's not always the case. people end up without jobs in some cities.
the point that was being explained with those many variables is to counteract that claim that a motivator for moving OOT is the "materialism", so they stay in NY instead.

This point is to show that if one is pro-chinuch and gives up restaurants and conveniences, then even if they have a whole/half a house, they are still not moving OOT for 'materialistic' reasons.

[skyguy918]

-1
that's not always the case. people end up without jobs in some cities.
the point that was being explained with those many variables is to counteract that claim that a motivator for moving OOT is the "materialism", so they stay in NY instead.

This point is to show that if one is pro-chinuch and gives up restaurants and conveniences, then even if they have a whole/half a house, they are still not moving OOT for 'materialistic' reasons.

That's a lot of if's. You're basically just assuming that a spacious house/property is not a motivator for moving OOT, and I should take that for granted because you said so. Nobody makes decisions in binary. I find it hard to believe that any significant portion of people living OOT don't consider the housing to be a major reason for where they live.

Again, I'm not saying this makes a particular individual 'materialistic', per se, or even just more or less materialistic than his in-town brethren. But to wash the point away like it's not part of the discussion is silly. If we're gonna say that being materialistic is a middah with a spectrum, then everyone is on that spectrum, including OOT'ers.

[farmbochur]

I propose we rename this thread: "The Pros of Where I Live and Cons of Where You Live"

[whYME]

This point is to show that if one is pro-chinuch and gives up restaurants and conveniences, then even if they have a whole/half a house, they are still not moving OOT for 'materialistic' reasons.

AFAICR, In the 2 1/2 thousand posts in this thread housing costs is far and away the biggest con given of  living in town and pro of OOT.

[David Smith]

AFAICR, In the 2 1/2 thousand posts in this thread housing costs is far and away the biggest con given of  living in town and pro of OOT.

OOT: Pros- cheaper housing, less people, less choices (which makes people less judgmental).

IT: Pros- more people, more family, more jobs, more choices.

[CS1]

OOT: Pros- cheaper housing, less people, less choices (which makes people less judgmental).

IT: Pros- more people, more family, more jobs, more choices.

true,
plus, for many people good schools and a good future for their children are important factors in deciding where to live (this can refer to both OOT and IT).

[churnbabychurn]

Sounds like you have plenty of experience raising kids (from American families) in the Israeli system.

Of course I do.

Trick is to conform to the Israeli system instead of fighting it at home.