The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live

[Work-for-ur-muny]

nah, I'm just pissed off that my kid's bike was stolen.

Reminds me of the story of the child whose mother was Hispanic and father was Jewish. One day he comes home and asks his mother, "Mom, am I more hispanic or more Jewish?" "I'm not quite sure about that. You'll have to ask your father," his mother replied. When his father came home from work that afternoon he runs over and asks "Dad, am I more hispanic or more Jewish?" "Why do you ask?" inquired his father. "Billy from down the block just offered to sell me his new bike. I want to know if I should bargain on the price, or wait till dark and steal it."

[CS1]

http://coreysnipes.com/moving-to-cleveland/

fascinating. The Jewish points that may affect many of us (Kosher food, tuition costs, school quality, etc...) may change the equation slightly, however that's a well thought out article for one whose family is from Toledo....   

[Denverite]

fascinating. The Jewish points that may affect many of us (Kosher food, tuition costs, school quality, etc...) may change the equation slightly, however that's a well thought out article for one whose family is from Toledo....   

He's right though, especially about the costs of housing in Denver. Our tuition costs are less than NY/LA/Boston and we are still way less than living there but if a frum family is considering moving from almost anywhere else, we aren't cheaper anymore. As an "out of towner," I can so clearly see why Cleveland is exploding Jewishly.  You've got all this great quality of life AND a Jewish infrastructure and school system WAY better than most OOT communities (if I moved there it would equally be for cost of living and not having to send my boys away for HS) and then you add in the tuition vouchers and you have a truly unique opportunity for frum families to actually be comfortably middle class!

[moko]

He's right though, especially about the costs of housing in Denver. Our tuition costs are less than NY/LA/Boston and we are still way less than living there but if a frum family is considering moving from almost anywhere else, we aren't cheaper anymore. As an "out of towner," I can so clearly see why Cleveland is exploding Jewishly.  You've got all this great quality of life AND a Jewish infrastructure and school system WAY better than most OOT communities (if I moved there it would equally be for cost of living and not having to send my boys away for HS) and then you add in the tuition vouchers and you have a truly unique opportunity for frum families to actually be comfortably middle class!

how did BOS tuition get lumped in with NYC/LAX? Based on my research, BOS is significantly less....what are the tuition cost in Denver? Boston is $9000 full tuition

[Denverite]

how did BOS tuition get lumped in with NYC/LAX? Based on my research, BOS is significantly less....what are the tuition cost in Denver? Boston is $9000 full tuition

I was mostly referencing housing prices in those cities although I am shocked to hear such a low amount. An old ranch style house is about 600k now in Denver and that's insanely high for a frum person who could move to another Jewish community with more restaurants, schools, etc. AND get MORE house for their money.  Forget Cleveland, our housing is now more expensive than Chicago and Boca Raton! Full tuition at the more right wing elementary school is 12.5k and the more modern school I think around 14k. 9k is cheap anywhere, is that just one school? I know a Modern family that I think the kids went to Maimonides in Boston and they said their full tuition was almost cut in half moving here.  Obviously all these calculations change by neighborhoods for housing and specific school costs but my point totally wasn't to belittle any other city, only to say that housing costs may have now put Denver out of the running for a number of families looking to move OOT.   

[whYME]

Move to OH. I hear they offer school vouchers

Not in Beachwood

Stam curious, has this caused housing prices in Beachwood to go down?

[Dan]

Not in Beachwood

Stam curious, has this caused housing prices in Beachwood to go down?

P"F actually. Beachwood has gone up even more than CH/UH as people from those cities sell their CH/UH homes to OOT folks who qualify for vouchers while they get the lower taxes and better services that Beachwood offers.

[whYME]

P"F actually. Beachwood has gone up even more than CH/UH as people from those cities sell their CH/UH homes to OOT folks who qualify for vouchers while they get the lower taxes and better services that Beachwood offers.

Interesting. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember you saying upthread that the vouchers are not income-dependent. I guess there are other qualifications needed?

ETA: I guess it could be people without school aged kids...

[Dan]

Interesting. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember you saying upthread that the vouchers are not income-dependent. I guess there are other qualifications needed?

ETA: I guess it could be people without school aged kids...

Kid need to be entering K or just moved to OH that year to qualify.

[whYME]

Kid need to be entering K or just moved to OH that year to qualify.

that seems kinda ridiculous and arbitrary. I wonder what the rationale is?

[Dan]

that seems kinda ridiculous and arbitrary. I wonder what the rationale is?

Don't want to take kids out of existing schools, but don't want to force new kids into failing schools.

[SearchGuy]

Staten Island (Willowbrook)

Pros:
- safe community, crime is virtually unheard of (notwithstanding white collar and one terrible homicide by a crazed husband).  You can sleep at night without every being awoken by sirens.
- Pretty good express bus service to downtown (35min) and midtown (50min) NYC, though little public transportation to brooklyn. New GPS tracking of buses makes it easy to not wait to long for a city bus. 15-minute drive to EWR airport.
- Housing is very cheap for NYC (less than $500k for a fixer-up detached home about 4000 sq ft plot 4br 3bath with nice backyard and about $380k for a move-in condition and quality semi (3br 2bath 3000sq ft plot).
- Parking is plentiful and no internal street traffic, though the staten island expressway can get really slow at peak times (but Islanders know the side streets which can help to an extent). 
- The streets are clean and everyone has their own garage.  There's no alternate side business and no parking meters.
- Low real estate taxes (about 2600 for a semi), much less than 5 towns, but need to pay NYC taxes. on bright side, decent snow services, and Con-Ed did a great job during Hurricane Sandy (only one planned 3 hour outage for most houses).
- More of an out-of-town feel than the rest of NYC, people are generally quite friendly and say good shabbos to each other with a smile. Much more accepting of different looks/dress than brooklyn/queens.
- Schools are decent and cheap, with JFS (modern), RJJ (frummer, but a good mix of MOs) and a small chabad + local nursery options.  i have personally been impressed with RJJ (considering the relatively low tuition) and JFS is a decent co-ed/modern option, plus there are transportation options to brooklyn for frummer or NJ for more modern. Tuition is cheaper than most places, but the quality/caliber of faculty is probably a notch down (not that i mind).
- lots of  trees and great parks and trails, and more parks (and a ferris wheel) coming in the future. great non-jewish store choices all within 5-10 minutes driving, such as trader joes, costco, target and the staten island mall in general. jersey gardens outlets about 15 minutes away.
- Has all basic kosher needs, though many come at a small $premium to brooklyn, very good and quality butcher (Payless), good takeout (kosher island), servicable bakery (Famous), great pizza and more (Dairy Palace), cholov yisroel ice cream/breakfast and more (scoops), Holy Schnitzel (schnitzel/salads) and Chopshtix (chinese/fried chicken) with free delivery, Cafe J at the JCC (broad from deli to burgers etc.). kosher (Chalav stam) carvel and dunkin donuts.
- Eruv and wide variety of shuls/people, with growing kollel (which some consider a con) at R Pollack's Shul (chassidish/sfard frummer feel), large Young israel with all types (including a classic minyan, modern sfard minyan, a teen minyan and bi-monthly young married minyan), small Agudah with R Moshe Meir Weiss, several edus mizrach type shuls and a classic chabad shul, cheder and yeshiva. hashkama minyan, faster minyans etc.
- great youth services at young israel like arranged babysitting on RH/YK so wives can daven, and regular shabbos groups during shachris/mussaf and also in afternoon (combined with regular groups, kids can be out with friends from 2:30-6pm).

Cons:
- The majority of the community came 25-30+ years ago and is older and slowly dying out/moving to Israel/Florida/Lakewood etc. to be with kids. fear that the handful of new young families that take the leap and buy a house each year won't grow at the rate the old families leave/die, and cause the limited local services to dwindle.
- NY weather.
- The local kosher restaurant scene is fairly dismal (and nothing near hi-class), and the lack of one all-in-one kosher grocery store like a Gourmet Glatt is a big negative for those who dont want to go to one place for bakery, takeout and regular kosher groceries.  Some say Staten will never be able to support such a local store since so many just buy in brooklyn (or get it delivered). on the plus side, brooklyn and downtown ny can be a 20 minute drive if you want to go out somewhere nice, or Teaneck is about 40mins.
- Houses are still relatively expensive vs out of town, and most options are High-Ranches, which some (like me) dont like too much. Virtually no classic apartment buildings, so young crowd is limited to basement apartments and a few other choices, and SI can never be a KGH or other hi-rental zone full of young married couples.
- Full NYC taxes, and must cross bridges (with some discounts) to get off the island.
- Very Limited high school options. Boys: (small low-priced chofetz chaim on island for boys, plus Yeshiva of Staten Island and other more hardcore frum yeshivos (with little general studies). JEC is more modern local choice in NJ, and some frum send their kids to Philly/Ner yisroel etc.  Girls: nothing. Bruriah in NJ for more modern, or some shlep to Manhattan, and Prospect park for frumer in Brooklyn.
- Some feel the local yeshivos are subpar, and run at an operating loss requiring significant fundraising.
- Need to drive/bike to get groceries/food etc. Suburban zoning sets the homes away from virtually all shopping/restaurants.
- will always be made fun of b/c there used to be a huge dump on the island (could be seen from space).
- Traffic on summer sundays from NJ and from brooklyn on friday afternoons in winter can be really slow on local Expressway.
- Was really built by courageous and powerful characters who have moved on, and there is no real leader of the community anymore.
- Very republican-heavy with a strong conservative tilt (for those who care about politics).

happy to take questions

Is there an updated version of this?

[whYME]

Don't want to take kids out of existing schools, but don't want to force new kids into failing schools.

i.e. they needed to throw a bone to the teachers union so they're only "forcing" the kids already in the failing schools to stay in the failing schools?

[Dan]

i.e. they needed to throw a bone to the teachers union so they're only "forcing" the kids already in the failing schools to stay in the failing schools?

Something like that.

[CS1]

Kid need to be entering K or just moved to OH that year to qualify.

is the CH/UH tuition voucher good just for the first year? Or every school year, for the next few years?

[Dan]

is the CH/UH tuition voucher good just for the first year? Or every school year, for the next few years?

Every year through 12th grade.

[efflpetzel]

Is there an updated version of this?

The Jewish area has gotten way more expensive, no longer makes sense financially for most unless you can't move more than a 20 min drive from your mother in boro park

[SearchGuy]

The Jewish area has gotten way more expensive, no longer makes sense financially for most unless you can't move more than a 20 min drive from your mother in boro park

I wanna guess that you moved to Lakewood...

[efflpetzel]

I wanna guess that you moved to Lakewood...

A while back.

But I always wondered whether I should have moved to Staten Island, in paper it ticked a lot of boxes untill I went there for shabbos a couple of times.

Prices have gone up a lot & considering the size of houses (small lots, no basement, most of house based on second floor) it makes no sense

[shiframeir]

The Jewish area has gotten way more expensive, no longer makes sense financially for most unless you can't move more than a 20 min drive from your mother in boro park

Yup, lots of changes in willowbrook. also kollel has kind of fallen off while chassidim have grown exponentially (and the eruv has gotten bigger so some more options esp if you are happy in a more chassidish crowd). no longer the bargain it once was, though lots of new pluses.

Prices have gone up a lot & considering the size of houses (small lots, no basement, most of house based on second floor) it makes no sense

plenty of larger houses/lots (compared to brooklyn, of course not woodmere) with basements, though those go for higher and few are for sale at reasonable prices since the hood is still in a relatively small radius. way too many high ranches (with kitchen/living/dining room on second floor) though. yeah, although i love the people and feel, dont see how we stay long term with prices so high that we can sell and get a better deal/bigger house elsewhere.