Author Topic: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live  (Read 601499 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3880 on: November 06, 2022, 08:21:26 PM »
Lol. Wisconsin doesn't if you look at a proper map

Yup. I see that now. The way state borders are drawn in lake superior.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3881 on: November 19, 2022, 09:17:20 PM »
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3882 on: December 27, 2022, 05:11:05 AM »
Just read the list for Yerushalayim, posted in 2012. I tried searching to see if anyone updated it, unsuccessfully. So here's my take (and let us get some updated thoughts from the rest of y'all that lurk here):

Yerushalayim
Pros
Grocery prices on basic foodstuffs
At least one good restaurant/eatery for every category (regarding the food, not always the ambience)
Tuition cheap to free
Medical insurance, even if you pay for the best categories
Free gemachim for a humongous list of things you may need short term, from CPAP machines to laptops to apartments (if you reserve early enough) to rides to hospitals to food for new mothers ... the list goes on.
The huge hearts of the preschool teachers
Very little focus on gashmius ('cause we don't have any...)
Greater sense of hashgacha pratis
Everyone shares everything (when we need a double stroller / drill / food processor / space in the freezer / few more chairs / larger living room for a kiddush, we just ask the neighbor. The same goes for when they need something.)
Shibud to Rabonim (When the local Bet Yaakov decided to segregate English-speakers into their own classes, the machlokes lasted two years. When Rav Shteineman gave his psak against the school's shita, it was suddenly like the machlokes never happened.)
I'd trade Chiloni taxi drivers for those of other persuasions any day (and bonus: sometimes you get a Charedi taxi driver)
Rubbing shoulders with other bnei aliyah constantly
The kosel
If you are in it: The Yeshivas Mir family of benefits and bonuses (you are always a part of it, even after you leave yeshiva), including discounted purchase of fruit, veggies, meat and chicken, and high-quality clothing
(Not everything here is exclusive - I would never claim that - but we have all of it here.)

Cons
None.  8)

Things you may find difficult to deal with
Language barrier
Stark change in middos of your average person compared to the US
List of things that are wildly expensive: American products (except some General Mills cereal, coffee, and a few other things with an official Israeli importer), plasticware, sugar drinks, and this year: any non-strawberry donut
Rent in neighborhoods with sizable English-speaking community has probably surpassed Brooklyn this year - rents have gone up an average of $400 a month
Construction right now has made a mess everywhere (hope this is temporary, but by the time it is done I'll probably be priced out of Yerushalayim)
To bring up healthy kids (despite the opinion of many people on this forum, it is possible to bring up edileh kids - just harder), you need to conform to a large extent
Either make aliyah or visit the embassy very often (every five years for each kid's passport, every ten for an adult, and every birth). At least you can do almost all Israeli bureaucracy online now.

New category: Things that are somehow both good and difficult
Mass transit - when it works it is cheap and quick. When it breaks down, it breaks down.
Taxes - depends on if you are poor (stupendously cheap) or rich (kind of expensive)
Israeli neighbors and landlords - Some of them are the sweetest people you ever met. (We kind of got adopted by a bubby one flight up from us. She even sends the kids presents for their birthdays.) Some of them...
Cell phone service - dirt cheap still (78 shekel for unlimited in EY and to foreign countries with US phone number), but horrible service in many places

I'm out of ideas for today. Anyone want to chime in?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 05:41:22 AM by mevinyavin »
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Offline YitzyS

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3883 on: December 27, 2022, 08:02:49 AM »

Beautiful post.

I'll add one thing that is significant to me. It's a serious reason that can be a factor in one taking up residence in the holy land:

ובהר ציון תהיה פליטה

Our nevi'im said that although other lands faced destruction throughout this long, bitter galus, Eretz Yisroel will remain. Yes, there may be tragedies there from time to time, but as a whole, it is guaranteed to persevere. Us in Chutz La'aretz have no such promise. And although it may seem nice here in America, I'm sure they thought the same thing in Germany 100 years ago, and in Spain 550 years ago, etc...

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3884 on: December 27, 2022, 10:11:54 AM »
I wouldn't bury the difficulty of raising well adjusted, emotionally stable, solidly frum kids so deep in the difficulty list. It's our main tafkid in this world, and according to most Rabbonim not worth sacrificing for the sake of living in EY. Torah and parnassah and mishpacha, which are generally interconnected, are legitimate reasons not to live in EY. One should discuss this with those experienced in the area before, during, and after making the move. (Your oft quoted Rav, Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz shlita, would be a great example of someone extremely knowledgeable and experienced in this area, although it can be difficult to make an appointment for sufficient time to consult with him properly.)

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3885 on: December 27, 2022, 10:43:25 AM »
I wouldn't bury the difficulty of raising well adjusted, emotionally stable, solidly frum kids so deep in the difficulty list. It's our main tafkid in this world, and according to most Rabbonim not worth sacrificing for the sake of living in EY. Torah and parnassah and mishpacha, which are generally interconnected, are legitimate reasons not to live in EY. One should discuss this with those experienced in the area before, during, and after making the move. (Your oft quoted Rav, Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz shlita, would be a great example of someone extremely knowledgeable and experienced in this area, although it can be difficult to make an appointment for sufficient time to consult with him properly.)
You are, of course, correct. Here are a few thoughts on this:
1. Harav Berkovits (if consulted) strongly advises against anyone moving from the US to EY with children over the age of seven. Instead, he usually advises those parents to move somewhere shtarker within the US. (I know of at least three cases like this or I wouldn't be quoting him so casually. In one of the cases, no one asked Rav Berkovits, but when it was mentioned to him, he told me to do my best to talk them out of moving here.)
2. Rav Berkovits has apparently put a lot of thought into mitigating the negatives of raising kids here. He seems to believe the advantages outweigh the disadvantages (obviously - based on his life choices - but he also says so explicitly). He has also noted, when asked, that the nisyonos faced by children in the US are not easier, but rather, just different. As such, each challenge must be approached differently. (I recently sat through a twenty-minute shiur to people visiting from the US, discussing how to deal with the nisyonos common where they are raising their kids. I confess almost all of it was new to me, and I attended a year's worth of chinuch shiurim by him.)
3. Item #2, regarding the middos of the people around you, shows where on the list I place it. The chinuch is almost always against the tide wherever you live ("Yes, people do that, but we don't"), so just par for the course.

It is clear by now that I am a talmid of Rav Berkovits. I assume it is not surprising that I go with his shitos? As mentioned, he holds that chinuch is more important than EY (where relevant). I know of one case when he told someone who had gone to the states for medical reasons, for two years. When he wanted to come back, a family member of his requested that he stay to help care for his father, and Rav Berkovits made him stay permanently. When I first came to Eretz Yisrael and for about five years after, the Rav accepted parnassa as a reason for leaving, but now in public he says not. In private, if you have nothing in EY and something convincingly good in the states, he would consider it. Lastly, he sends talmidim to the states for the sake of Klal Yisrael (ie kiruv), but only if they are the type who are up to doing some good.
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Offline Sam 77

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3886 on: December 27, 2022, 11:24:46 AM »
con medical system

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3887 on: December 27, 2022, 12:38:47 PM »
Harav Berkovits (if consulted) strongly advises against anyone moving from the US to EY with children over the age of seven.

Do you know how recently he gave this advice? 

Offline whacked1

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3888 on: December 27, 2022, 03:37:07 PM »
Just read the list for Yerushalayim, posted in 2012. I tried searching to see if anyone updated it, unsuccessfully. So here's my take (and let us get some updated thoughts from the rest of y'all that lurk here):

Yerushalayim
Pros
Grocery prices on basic foodstuffs
At least one good restaurant/eatery for every category (regarding the food, not always the ambience)
Tuition cheap to free
Medical insurance, even if you pay for the best categories
Free gemachim for a humongous list of things you may need short term, from CPAP machines to laptops to apartments (if you reserve early enough) to rides to hospitals to food for new mothers ... the list goes on.
The huge hearts of the preschool teachers
Very little focus on gashmius ('cause we don't have any...)
Greater sense of hashgacha pratis
Everyone shares everything (when we need a double stroller / drill / food processor / space in the freezer / few more chairs / larger living room for a kiddush, we just ask the neighbor. The same goes for when they need something.)
Shibud to Rabonim (When the local Bet Yaakov decided to segregate English-speakers into their own classes, the machlokes lasted two years. When Rav Shteineman gave his psak against the school's shita, it was suddenly like the machlokes never happened.)
I'd trade Chiloni taxi drivers for those of other persuasions any day (and bonus: sometimes you get a Charedi taxi driver)
Rubbing shoulders with other bnei aliyah constantly
The kosel
If you are in it: The Yeshivas Mir family of benefits and bonuses (you are always a part of it, even after you leave yeshiva), including discounted purchase of fruit, veggies, meat and chicken, and high-quality clothing
(Not everything here is exclusive - I would never claim that - but we have all of it here.)

Cons
None.  8)

Things you may find difficult to deal with
Language barrier
Stark change in middos of your average person compared to the US
List of things that are wildly expensive: American products (except some General Mills cereal, coffee, and a few other things with an official Israeli importer), plasticware, sugar drinks, and this year: any non-strawberry donut
Rent in neighborhoods with sizable English-speaking community has probably surpassed Brooklyn this year - rents have gone up an average of $400 a month
Construction right now has made a mess everywhere (hope this is temporary, but by the time it is done I'll probably be priced out of Yerushalayim)
To bring up healthy kids (despite the opinion of many people on this forum, it is possible to bring up edileh kids - just harder), you need to conform to a large extent
Either make aliyah or visit the embassy very often (every five years for each kid's passport, every ten for an adult, and every birth). At least you can do almost all Israeli bureaucracy online now.

New category: Things that are somehow both good and difficult
Mass transit - when it works it is cheap and quick. When it breaks down, it breaks down.
Taxes - depends on if you are poor (stupendously cheap) or rich (kind of expensive)
Israeli neighbors and landlords - Some of them are the sweetest people you ever met. (We kind of got adopted by a bubby one flight up from us. She even sends the kids presents for their birthdays.) Some of them...
Cell phone service - dirt cheap still (78 shekel for unlimited in EY and to foreign countries with US phone number), but horrible service in many places

I'm out of ideas for today. Anyone want to chime in?
Really nice post. Note on your pros list. That list is the exact same of anyone that wants a minimalist "ultra" (using this word due to brain fog) religious neighborhood/lifestyle, nothing exclusive to Yerushalayim. You find this concept in almost any religion. Search bruderhof for one example. Some unique differences specific to yerushalayim are; a. your con list, and b. You are somewhat at odds with the rest of the countrys population.

You need to be seeking out that sort of lifestyle to enjoy it. (which is what leads back to children conversation)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 03:40:20 PM by whacked1 »

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3889 on: December 28, 2022, 04:58:12 AM »
Do you know how recently he gave this advice?
Last case I knew of was a year.

Quote from: Sam 77
con medical system
I put this in the pros. We can agree to disagree, if you like, or I can happily explain my reasoning. I have been around in the decade I've been here, seen a few emergency rooms, scheduled a few operations for my kids, called a few ambulances, needed a few specialists and had to wait to get them, been denied coverage and had to fight to get it ... but I still think it is great.

Quote from: whacked1
...nothing exclusive to Yerushalayim...
You need to be seeking out that sort of lifestyle to enjoy it.
Never denied that you can find this elsewhere. However, you may be hard pressed to find it all, and a lot of it with such extremes. (Also, the Ruchniyus aspects of Yerushalayim are definitely exclusive. Such as the kosel.) And of COURSE you need to seek out that lifestyle to enjoy it. Can't deny that either...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 05:26:08 AM by mevinyavin »
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Offline yesitsme

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3890 on: January 18, 2023, 12:02:54 AM »
Pharmaceutical service in Lakewood sucks, delivery + service
nothing beats a delivery from freunds or medication from medication chest

many times the medication is sent to the wrong pharmacy I never asked to sent there,  that would be the dr fault, but I wouldn't know where it was sent to only after going to pick it up and driving everyone crazy since everything is sent electronically and I'm clueless where it was actually sent to.

pharmacy wouldn't do anything  about it even if they offer delivery unless you specifically request it

today the dr prescribed Amoxicillin for ear infection for a young child, I asked if its flavored, dr response sure

okay I picked it up and I come home well its not flavored, call the U/C well that's the pharma's choice about the flavor, really so why don't you tell me that before I pick it up?
anyways this is messed up
now you ask its only a flavor, well if the child refuses to take it its not only about the flavor

in BP if you call an ambulance and freunds  delivery at the same time you'l get the freunds order before the ambulance arrives
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3891 on: January 18, 2023, 12:29:23 AM »
Pharmaceutical service in Lakewood sucks, delivery + service
nothing beats a delivery from freunds or medication from medication chest

many times the medication is sent to the wrong pharmacy I never asked to sent there,  that would be the dr fault, but I wouldn't know where it was sent to only after going to pick it up and driving everyone crazy since everything is sent electronically and I'm clueless where it was actually sent to.

pharmacy wouldn't do anything  about it even if they offer delivery unless you specifically request it

today the dr prescribed Amoxicillin for ear infection for a young child, I asked if its flavored, dr response sure

okay I picked it up and I come home well its not flavored, call the U/C well that's the pharma's choice about the flavor, really so why don't you tell me that before I pick it up?
anyways this is messed up
now you ask its only a flavor, well if the child refuses to take it its not only about the flavor

in BP if you call an ambulance and freunds  delivery at the same time you'l get the freunds order before the ambulance arrives

Electronic prescriptions are the culprit. Back in the day you were able to shop around at any pharmacy with a paper prescription.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3892 on: January 18, 2023, 07:47:15 AM »
in BP if you call an ambulance and freunds  delivery at the same time you'l get the freunds order before the ambulance arrives
Very good!

Offline Joel

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3893 on: January 18, 2023, 07:56:08 AM »
Pharmaceutical service in Lakewood sucks, delivery + service
nothing beats a delivery from freunds or medication from medication chest

many times the medication is sent to the wrong pharmacy I never asked to sent there,  that would be the dr fault, but I wouldn't know where it was sent to only after going to pick it up and driving everyone crazy since everything is sent electronically and I'm clueless where it was actually sent to.

pharmacy wouldn't do anything  about it even if they offer delivery unless you specifically request it

today the dr prescribed Amoxicillin for ear infection for a young child, I asked if its flavored, dr response sure

okay I picked it up and I come home well its not flavored, call the U/C well that's the pharma's choice about the flavor, really so why don't you tell me that before I pick it up?
anyways this is messed up
now you ask its only a flavor, well if the child refuses to take it its not only about the flavor

in BP if you call an ambulance and freunds  delivery at the same time you'l get the freunds order before the ambulance arrives
Are you comparing Lakewood to BP?
You do realize Lakewood is larger in size and takes longer for delivers to arrive.
In regards to sending the prescription to the wrong pharmacy that is the doctor you are using a issue not a Lakewood problem 😀

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3894 on: January 18, 2023, 12:39:41 PM »
Pharmaceutical service in Lakewood sucks, delivery + service
nothing beats a delivery from freunds or medication from medication chest

many times the medication is sent to the wrong pharmacy I never asked to sent there,  that would be the dr fault, but I wouldn't know where it was sent to only after going to pick it up and driving everyone crazy since everything is sent electronically and I'm clueless where it was actually sent to.

pharmacy wouldn't do anything  about it even if they offer delivery unless you specifically request it

today the dr prescribed Amoxicillin for ear infection for a young child, I asked if its flavored, dr response sure

okay I picked it up and I come home well its not flavored, call the U/C well that's the pharma's choice about the flavor, really so why don't you tell me that before I pick it up?
anyways this is messed up
now you ask its only a flavor, well if the child refuses to take it its not only about the flavor

in BP if you call an ambulance and freunds  delivery at the same time you'l get the freunds order before the ambulance arrives
This is a stickied sponsored post paid by Freund's lol..

Offline YitzyS

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3895 on: January 18, 2023, 08:30:14 PM »
I'm not sure what you are referring to.

I use Refuah Pharmacy and I'm really happy with them. The deliveries are not instant (I think they go out 2 or 3 times a day), but I can rely on EVERY prescription that is sent in showing up by my door within the next few hours. In the rare case they are out of something, they call and try to work something out, either by suggesting something similar or by letting me know when they will get it in. I never had any issues with them not receiving my doctor's prescriptions. It's quick, seamless, professional service in my experience.

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3896 on: January 18, 2023, 08:33:51 PM »
I'm not sure what you are referring to.

I use Refuah Pharmacy and I'm really happy with them. The deliveries are not instant (I think they go out 2 or 3 times a day), but I can rely on EVERY prescription that is sent in showing up by my door within the next few hours. In the rare case they are out of something, they call and try to work something out, either by suggesting something similar or by letting me know when they will get it in. I never had any issues with them not receiving my doctor's prescriptions. It's quick, seamless, professional service in my experience.

Same with West Gate Pharmacy.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yesitsme

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #3897 on: January 18, 2023, 09:26:21 PM »
I'm not sure what you are referring to.

I use Refuah Pharmacy and I'm really happy with them. The deliveries are not instant (I think they go out 2 or 3 times a day), but I can rely on EVERY prescription that is sent in showing up by my door within the next few hours. In the rare case they are out of something, they call and try to work something out, either by suggesting something similar or by letting me know when they will get it in. I never had any issues with them not receiving my doctor's prescriptions. It's quick, seamless, professional service in my experience.
i also use refuah whenever possible, they don't deliver past whatever and close at nine
most of the issues i have is when its sent to other pharmacies even though i asked it should be sent to refuah, or when its too late for refuah and need to use other pharmacies

refuah service is good but they close early (by the time someone looks at you in chai care its almost nine) and stop delivereis even earlier
i could not care who fulfills the order as long as you deliver it or at least make a phone call when you see its laying around, otherwise i have to call the insurance company and go through the lengthy verification process to see where its waiting
["-"]