Author Topic: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live  (Read 859149 times)

Offline EliJelly

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4120 on: August 14, 2023, 02:43:44 PM »

2. Do you really think that people aren't going to give to other organizations because they are giving to hatzalah? Doubtful
3. There is plenty of yiddisha gelt. Maybe people in Cleveland don't flaunt it as they do in other communities, but I'm sure if they could support restaurants, other community businesses, and organizations (as well as many nationwide and global organizations), there's enough for Hatzalah, without it hurting other organizations.

Satmar Rov's doctrine in teaching the oilem giving Tzedakah was that the more you shlep the more they get used to give, and that was proven right.

Offline Dan

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4121 on: August 14, 2023, 02:44:25 PM »
So where (in your opinion) is the push coming from to start Cleveland Hatzolah?

I'd assume it's from transplants.

Mind you, I don't think it's a bad thing. I just like playing devil's advocate in these debates.

There are spots in town (CH? SE?) where EMS isn't as fast. And someone PMd me that in UH they're fast for 1 call, but if there are multiple calls, it can take time.

So yes, I certainly hear those arguments.
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4122 on: August 14, 2023, 02:44:35 PM »
By that token, everyone on Earth should be an EMT.
Or Hatzalah should employ hundreds of thousands of people.
Or everyone should spend everything they can to always have a EMT follow them around as much as possible.
It will surely save even more lives.

In the real world, resources are finite and everything has a cost-benefit analysis. When EMS takes 20 minutes, then there's obviously a good case for millions of dollars of spending to correct that.

When EMS takes 1-2 minutes, the cost-benefit analysis is obviously murkier and labeling it a stupid conversation instead of having an honest debate is infantile.
If you don't use it, you lose it. If they have too many members, there wouldn't be enough 'work' to go around, and people wouldn't stay sharp. I imagine that they are also worried about people abusing the system (using lights and sirens when they're not supposed to, going through lights/speed cameras and blaming it on a response, etc.). But yes, in a perfect world, everybody should be trained in basic CPR and first aide. In many communities, Hatzalah and other organizations do in fact, offer those courses to the community. As well as their babysitter (if I recall correctly, Far Rockaway Hatzalah even offered the class in Spanish a few years ago).
Hatzalah has worked in every community that they tried, including many smaller ones (way smaller than Cleveland). There systems and the way they operate is proven to save lived everywhere. I just don't get why people wouldn't want it.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4123 on: August 14, 2023, 02:46:37 PM »
IMHO, this is such a stupid conversation.
1. If they save even 1 life, it's worth it.

If that it was so simple. CLE seems like an outlier in the speed and quality of local EMS. As stated above, with both hatzalah and EMS responding, it is not a question of if there will be turf wars, but when they will crop up, and how they will manifest. Will there be shouting matches in front of patients? Will it rise to physical blows? Will it be fought strictly in courtrooms? There is no telling what will happen, but it is beyond foolish to think everything will go smoothly. There are turf wars between competing frum social services all the time, when both organizations help and care for community members with mesiras nefesh, not to mention plenty of infighting with hatzalah itself.

With the setup as described in CLE, I would guess that there is more chance of hatzalah harming patient care than helping. And as you can see upthread and elsewhere on this forum, I'm as ardent a fan of hatzalah as anyone.

Offline Dan

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4124 on: August 14, 2023, 02:48:37 PM »
I just don't get why people wouldn't want it.
Do you get why OH doesn't require parallel parking to get a DL or why there's no alternate side needed?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4125 on: August 14, 2023, 02:49:50 PM »
Do you get why OH doesn't require parallel parking to get a DL or why there's no alternate side needed?

And do you get why NY doesn't need a good snow removal system?

Offline Dan

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4126 on: August 14, 2023, 02:51:46 PM »
And do you get why NY doesn't need a good snow removal system?
Thanks to global warming, even CLE no longer needs one. :P


Sad!
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Online Sammy82

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4127 on: August 14, 2023, 02:56:10 PM »
Do you get why OH doesn't require parallel parking to get a DL or why there's no alternate side needed?
Nope. I'm assuming because there is more parking and people don't make a mess. Or they found other ways to raise money for the city.
But I'm not sure what that has to with saving lives.

Offline Sam 77

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4128 on: August 14, 2023, 02:57:42 PM »
@mods maybe this conversation should be moved to a new thread?

Offline Dan

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4129 on: August 14, 2023, 02:58:24 PM »
Nope. I'm assuming because there is more parking and people don't make a mess. Or they found other ways to raise money for the city.
But I'm not sure what that has to with saving lives.
Everyone has a driveway. Overnight street parking is illegal.

The needs of one place aren't the needs of the next place.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline jj1000

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4130 on: August 14, 2023, 03:00:04 PM »
If that it was so simple. CLE seems like an outlier in the speed and quality of local EMS. As stated above, with both hatzalah and EMS responding, it is not a question of if there will be turf wars, but when they will crop up, and how they will manifest. Will there be shouting matches in front of patients? Will it rise to physical blows? Will it be fought strictly in courtrooms? There is no telling what will happen, but it is beyond foolish to think everything will go smoothly. There are turf wars between competing frum social services all the time, when both organizations help and care for community members with mesiras nefesh, not to mention plenty of infighting with hatzalah itself.

With the setup as described in CLE, I would guess that there is more chance of hatzalah harming patient care than helping. And as you can see upthread and elsewhere on this forum, I'm as ardent a fan of hatzalah as anyone.
Yup, big fights and breaking apart of communities down here in South Florida thanks to the perfect always works out amazing hatzalah model.

Someone is living in a bubble...

Not to say we shouldn't have it.. but it isn't all rainbows and sunshine.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4131 on: August 14, 2023, 03:02:36 PM »
Thanks to global warming, even CLE no longer needs one. :P


Sad!

I see a 9% increase in overall snowfall in the past 4 years!

Global warming is causing more snow!
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4132 on: August 14, 2023, 03:08:05 PM »
Yup, big fights and breaking apart of communities down here in South Florida thanks to the perfect always works out amazing hatzalah model.

Someone is living in a bubble...

Not to say we shouldn't have it.. but it isn't all rainbows and sunshine.
Of course it's not simple. Nothing comes easy.

Offline jj1000

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4133 on: August 14, 2023, 03:12:17 PM »
Of course it's not simple. Nothing comes easy.
Hatzalah has worked in every community that they tried, including many smaller ones (way smaller than Cleveland). There systems and the way they operate is proven to save lived everywhere. I just don't get why people wouldn't want it.
Tearing apart communities and creating fighting among yidden may not be everyone's definition of working out.
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4134 on: August 14, 2023, 03:22:17 PM »
Tearing apart communities and creating fighting among yidden may not be everyone's definition of working out.
I"m not so familiar with what's happening down there. My understanding is that a group of people tried to start Hatzahah in a community that Hatzahah wasn't servicing yet, and Hatzalah took offense (and legal action) that the Hatzalah name and logo was used. Is that more or less it? If so 1. Why would those people use a trademark name? It's on those few people. I think has every right to protect their name (and possibly even liability) 2. I imagine South Florida is unique in the sense that they have many small communities spread out over dozens of miles. I imagine that that was part of what created the issue (they couldn't service every community right away efficiently, so the communities that got left out started their own thing, but under Hatzalah's name.
If my understanding above is correct (and again, I'm the first to say I'm not really familiar with what is happening down there), then I don't think there is any reason to suspect that similar issues will happen in Cleveland.
Based on what a few people here are posting, their concern is that 1. there is no need for hatzalah in Cleveland, and 2. could the community really support them. I think I pretty much answered both of those concerns, even without knowing Cleveland.

Offline jj1000

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4135 on: August 14, 2023, 03:29:05 PM »
I"m not so familiar with what's happening down there.
Yet, you said
Hatzalah has worked in every community that they tried
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4136 on: August 14, 2023, 03:39:39 PM »
Ok. When I say has worked, I meant that 1. They saved lives 2. The communities figure out how to support them. Ur correct, if some smucks want to create politics, fights, etc, that may happen. My understanding is that that happens in NY too (not letting too many people join, pushing back when ladies want to open a competitive organization, and so on) but I don't think anybody will say that hatzalah shouldn't operate because of that.
Furthermore, every organization has politics to some degree. Hatzalah happens to be a huge organization and services every single Jew in their service areas so of course their politics may be bigger and/or more well known. But don't fool urself and think that that is unique to hatzalah.

Offline rbs-g1.5

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4137 on: August 14, 2023, 04:11:29 PM »
I believe North-West Philly operates the same way. They can't transport, but they respond to assist.
I am glad to hear that something changed over there. My friend was hit by a car coming home from shul on a Friday night around 15 years ago and bled to death  while waiting a very long time for an ambulance. (maybe this was why they made a Hatzala)

Offline yos9694

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4138 on: August 14, 2023, 04:15:26 PM »
How many frum families are in Cle these days? Hundreds? A few thousand?

Offline Dan

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #4139 on: August 14, 2023, 04:20:20 PM »
Based on what a few people here are posting, their concern is that 1. there is no need for hatzalah in Cleveland, and 2. could the community really support them. I think I pretty much answered both of those concerns, even without knowing Cleveland.
1. You haven't answered nor proven anything of the sort. It's certainly up for debate.

2. Nobody said they can't be supported. I'd be shocked if that were the case. The question is which resources lose out? Does a gvir bankrolling one of our many kollels or Bikur Cholim divert funds, and is that the correct tradeoff? Assuming there are infinite resources is nice in theory, but you can't rely on that being the case.

3. There is certainly a concern of turf wars between EMS and Hatzalah given the existing rapid response times. There are also concerns of a radio and sirens culture that doesn't currently exist.

Mind you, I don't think it's a bad thing. I just like playing devil's advocate in these debates.
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