The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live

[Dan]

How many frum families are in Cle these days? Hundreds? A few thousand?

The latter.

[Sammy82]

1. You haven't answered nor proven anything of the sort. It's certainly up for debate.

2. Nobody said they can't be supported. I'd be shocked if that were the case. The question is which resources lose out? Does a gvir bankrolling one of our many kollels or Bikur Cholim divert funds, and is that the correct tradeoff? Assuming there are infinite resources is nice in theory, but you can't rely on that being the case.

3. There is certainly a concern of turf wars between EMS and Hatzalah given the existing rapid response times. There are also concerns of a radio and sirens culture that doesn't currently exist.

I don't think it's absolutely necessary for lights and sirens. Just as it's not absolutely necessary for transport. Would it help? Absolutely. But even without it, many lives will be saved. I'm pretty sure there are many communities that don't have lights and sirens.
BTW I have nothing to do with Hatzalah aside from supporting them, thanking my local members regularly, and using their services a few times over the years. I have unbelievable hakaras hatov to them, and try to appreciate them, especially when I don't need them (with the hopes that HKBH makes it that I never have to call them).

[herb]

Tearing apart communities and creating fighting among yidden may not be everyone's definition of working out.

as if there aren't enough politics in Cleveland

[Lurker]

The most important thing to come out of this conversation is that Dan sometimes does read his PMs.

And someone PMd me

[Euclid]

The most important thing to come out of this conversation is that Dan sometimes does read his PMs.

Selectively; as long as you use specific Cleveland related keywords.

[Yo ssi]

The most important thing to come out of this conversation is that Dan sometimes does read his PMs.

Old news

Feel free to PM

[ExGingi]

Old news

More like ancient news, but I'll leave the reference to @TimT

[Dan]

The most important thing to come out of this conversation is that Dan sometimes does read his PMs.

Where did I say that I don't read PMs.

[avromie7]

IMHO, this is such a stupid conversation.
1. If they save even 1 life, it's worth it. And I'm sure you would agree if that one life was a family member of yours.
2. Do you really think that people aren't going to give to other organizations because they are giving to hatzalah? Doubtful
3. There is plenty of yiddisha gelt. Maybe people in Cleveland don't flaunt it as they do in other communities, but I'm sure if they could support restaurants, other community businesses, and organizations (as well as many nationwide and global organizations), there's enough for Hatzalah, without it hurting other organizations.
4. I work in healthcare. I would trust a 15-year-old lifeguard to do CPR, heimlich, and splinting more than most doctors. MDs are good in their specialty but unless they work in a related specialty, they have never done emergency care since their school days. So having several MDs in every shul doesn't help (unless they are trained and practicing EMTs, paramedics, etc).
5. Even if the MDs know do proper emergency care, what happens if an emergency happens outside of shul? You start running around and calling neighbors to see who's available to come at that moment? That's a great waste of time. Every hatzalah member will tell you, in case of emergency, call hatzalah central number/911 first and only then call your neighbor friend, etc. By creating hatzalah, you are streamlining the notification. So even if one neighbor isn't available or nearby, the member down the road is getting notified at the same exact time. No delay in care. And as mentioned previously, a few-second delay could be the matter between life and death.
I just don't get the pushback. Maybe it's that 'we're different than New York/New Jersey. We don't want to be like them' mentality. That's great if you want to do it with restaurants, keeping up with the Cohen's, double parking, etc. When it comes to saving lives, why in hecks name would you NOT want to be like NY and NJ who, by ALL standards, are second to none GLOBALLY (aside from EY maybe)?

God decides who lives and who dies. There is no halacha that every city needs hatzalah, there is a halacha that every city needs a Dr.

There is certainly a good argument to be made that the 911 system in many places is insufficient; but these blanket statements are wrong, especially when the local EMS is very responsive.

It sounds like this is not being done with the goal of saving lives, rather it's a Chesed for helping people in times of need. That is a great thing in any situation.

[zh cohen]

I could envision arguments and fights between the two over who should be caring for the patient.

Hatzalah's website says clearly that once EMS arrives, they will take over. I imagine that they will be training their volunteers accordingly (and I have faith that Hatzalah would do it right).

The benefit they provide is 1 - for situation where you aren't sure about calling 911. 2 - providing care until EMS arrives, which in some situations is life-saving.

[Yehuda57]

Hatzalah's website says clearly that once EMS arrives, they will take over. I imagine that they will be training their volunteers accordingly (and I have faith that Hatzalah would do it right).

The benefit they provide is 1 - for situation where you aren't sure about calling 911. 2 - providing care until EMS arrives, which in some situations is life-saving.

I'd love to be proven wrong

[JMHO]

Why is the current plan for CLE Hatzolah not to transport? Is it because 911 is sufficient or because they can't get the necessary approvals?

[Dan]

Why is the current plan for CLE Hatzolah not to transport? Is it because 911 is sufficient or because they can't get the necessary approvals?

I know that we have some CLE Hatzola board members following this discussion. By all means, please chime in.
We don't bite very often.

[Sammy82]

Why is the current plan for CLE Hatzolah not to transport? Is it because 911 is sufficient or because they can't get the necessary approvals?

My guess is
1. takes time to get necessary permits
2. takes more money for ambulances
3. to take it slow to not step on other's toes or require as much money.
That being said, I would bet that it's only a matter of ~5 years before they are at least discussing it.

[thaber]

In La, and I presume elsewhere where they don't transport, it's permits, which are exclusive to the FD. (there are other private transport companies, which is a point of contention). There are actually Hatzolah ambulances gathering dust in parking lots for years. Here when you call hatzola they call the FD for you, and there is a mutula respect apparently on the paramedic level. they come to every call, always after Hatzala, and if a transport is necessary they take over.

[mevinyavin]

I see a 9% increase in overall snowfall in the past 4 years!

Global warming is causing more snow!

There's a reason that the descriptive phrase is now "climate change" instead of "global warming."
Agav, according to your chart, and similar to what JJ said, there was more snow in 2022 and 2020 than you had since 2014. Also, we still have November and December's snow to calculate before 2023 is over.

(I love off-topic posts.)

[S209]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cvr0Ygutbpq/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

Hatzolah member with a 15 second response time to save a child choking. look how fast the cars get there. it's unreal.

I attribute the way HKBH orchestrated my daughter’s life be spared from a severe anaphylactic reaction to the nearly instantaneous response by Hatzalah (seconds, not minutes. She wasn’t breathing anymore after minutes. We were in the hospital 2 minutes after the initial phone call).

[Dan]

I attribute the way HKBH orchestrated my daughter’s life be spared from a severe anaphylactic reaction to the nearly instantaneous response by Hatzalah (seconds, not minutes. She wasn’t breathing anymore after minutes. We were in the hospital 2 minutes after the initial phone call).

Amazing!

[yfr bachur]

There's a Mir legend that someone once offered to donate AEDs for all the batei medrashim in the Mir.
RNTFs response: hard pass. If they are there, they will get use. (not a direct quote!) maybe @mevinyavin remembers more details?

Agav, in my 12 years in the Mir, I never ever heard of anyone needing CPR while on the yeshiva campus.

[12HRS]

By that token, everyone on Earth should be an EMT.
Or Hatzalah should employ hundreds of thousands of people.
Or everyone should spend everything they can to always have a EMT follow them around as much as possible.
It will surely save even more lives.

In the real world, resources are finite and everything has a cost-benefit analysis. When EMS takes 20 minutes, then there's obviously a good case for millions of dollars of spending to correct that.

When EMS takes 1-2 minutes, the cost-benefit analysis is obviously murkier and labeling it a stupid conversation instead of having an honest debate is infantile.

1) Having too many EMT's will not work. They need to be active members to keep their skills up. There is obviously a balance somewhere between having members every few blocks and EMS 1min away (if it's truly always the case).

2) It should never happen but Local EMS works when there are not too many calls at the same time. Hatzalah generally can cover those gaps. What about a mass casualty? How long till additional resources arrive from neighboring communities? yes the city can get a few units on scene quickly to scene command/triage but how many lives are given up on due to needing to manage the scene and having to decide between which lives are "saveable".

3) I don't fully understand this point about the $. If having members closer will save lives then the $ shouldn't be a question. If having members closer will not make a difference then the $ is a waste. We are mechalel shabbos and stop learning to save lives, (within the parameters of "Ei Efshar al Yidei Acheirim") how can we be concerned about the $ if having members closer makes a difference? Maybe I am oversimplifying.

3. There is certainly a concern of turf wars between EMS and Hatzalah given the existing rapid response times. There are also concerns of a radio and sirens culture that doesn't currently exist.

I think this is legitimate. It needs to be handled well by both the upper management and members on scene.

One recent case in point: Friend of mine walked into a cardiac arrest and the local EMS was doing compressions with the patient still on the bed. Essentially worthless compressions. Local EMS said it was handled and did not want Hatazlah on scene.

How does hatzalah handle this? Certainly stepping on toes if they get involved. Does trying to save this life outweigh the need to not cause fights? Does causing fights to potentially save this life ruin the ability to give future care? I don't have the answer but I am sure these situations will be arising.

God decides who lives and who dies. There is no halacha that every city needs hatzalah, there is a halacha that every city needs a Dr.

God deciding who lives and dies does not mean we shouldn't be doing what is required by halacha, such as having a Dr as you say. what about running out on shabbos? There was a time when some rabbonim did not want any hatzalahs to operate on shabbos...

This DR requirement needs to be unpacked more to understand the svaras behind it and how it applies to having local EMS. One could certainly argue that EMS knowledge of medicine nowadays is greater than DR's 1000 years ago.

I attribute the way HKBH orchestrated my daughter’s life be spared from a severe anaphylactic reaction to the nearly instantaneous response by Hatzalah (seconds, not minutes. She wasn’t breathing anymore after minutes. We were in the hospital 2 minutes after the initial phone call).

There are many such stories. Seconds matter, especially with kids or elderly. Even if local EMS is 1min out. And not just in regards to saving lives, in regards to outcomes as well, quality of life and brain function.

There's a Mir legend that someone once offered to donate AEDs for all the batei medrashim in the Mir.
RNTFs response: hard pass. If they are there, they will get use. (not a direct quote!) maybe @mevinyavin remembers more details?

Agav, in my 12 years in the Mir, I never ever heard of anyone needing CPR while on the yeshiva campus.

I'm very hesitant to argue on RNTF, or any Rav for that matter. However in my 12 years by my yeshiva which has an AED as well, it was also never used.