Guns Master Thread

[zale]

Btw they just identified the guy as a disgruntled TV worker.
Although it doesn't make sense.
At least not from that station.

Do you agree that this man shouldn't have been allowed to own a gun? (assuming that it was legal?)

[clear thinker]

Do you agree that this man shouldn't have been allowed to own a gun? (assuming that it was legal?)

Is there anyway we could have known?

[whYME]

many great leaders such as Stalin, Hitler, and Castro would definitely agree with you on this one.
Ordinary citizens should not be allowed to own guns...

[Achas Veachas]

[quote author=zale
Let me ask you this: if theoretically there was an easy way to have all guns removed from citizens, good and bad, would you accept that?
many great leaders such as Stalin, Hitler, and Castro would definitely agree with you on this one.
Ordinary citizens should not be allowed to own guns...

Cheap argument, there are many countries with strict gun laws who's leaders are nowhere in that league...

[zale]

many great leaders such as Stalin, Hitler, and Castro would definitely agree with you on this one.
Ordinary citizens should not be allowed to own guns...

If I had a dime for every time I heard that argument, I wouldn't have to churn credit cards anymore.

First, if you are worried about a sudden change in our government to a fascist dictatorship, then you best be stocking up on AR-15's with loads of ammo. You should also stock up on grenades and RPG's. It wouldn't hurt to also acquire a couple of Black Hawk helicopters.

If the United States Third Infantry shows up on your lawn, I'm not sure how long your 9mm handgun is going to hold them off for.

Second, how many people are buying guns specifically for this reason?

Third, what are the probabilities of this happening, and is it worth the deaths of daycare children because of this paranoia?

Fourth, why do Jews still live in the UK where guns are banned? They should be running for their lives in case another Hitler takes over!

[Aaaron]

If I had a dime for every time I heard that argument, I wouldn't have to churn credit cards anymore.

First, if you are worried about a sudden change in our government to a fascist dictatorship, then you best be stocking up on AR-15's with loads of ammo. You should also stock up on grenades and RPG's. It wouldn't hurt to also acquire a couple of Black Hawk helicopters.

If the United States Third Infantry shows up on your lawn, I'm not sure how long your 9mm handgun is going to hold them off for.

Second, how many people are buying guns specifically for this reason?

Third, what are the probabilities of this happening, and is it worth the deaths of daycare children because of this paranoia?

Fourth, why do Jews still live in the UK where guns are banned? They should be running for their lives in case another Hitler takes over!

Some of us are 

[zale]

Some of us are 

What are you going to do when an M1 Abrahams tank shows up in your driveway? Did you stock up on anti-tank missile launchers? Do you have a howitizer in your garage?

[Yammer]

What are you going to do when an M1 Abrahams tank shows up in your driveway? Did you stock up on anti-tank missile launchers? Do you have a howitizer in your garage?

The point isn't your driveway. It's the point of them going all over the country and doing it, and it can't be done if you have an armed country.

[Aaaron]

What are you going to do when an M1 Abrahams tank shows up in your driveway? Did you stock up on anti-tank missile launchers? Do you have a howitizer in your garage?

Yes.  With my Blackhawk and F-22 in my backyard.

In all seriousness, I'm not a "prepper" but I - and a good portion of my friends/neighbors - believe in being prepared.  Would I die by being outgunned if the government went tyrannical?  Most probably.

[Yammer]

The point isn't your driveway. It's the point of them going all over the country and doing it, and it can't be done if you have an armed country.

It doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate points on both sides of the debate, but that's the reason why the law was created.

[clear thinker]

And is it worth the deaths of daycare children because of this paranoia?

Again a criminal will get guns anyways and we all know it!

[jj1000]

What are you going to do when an M1 Abrahams tank shows up in your driveway? Did you stock up on anti-tank missile launchers? Do you have a howitizer in your garage?

Question: Would more Jews have survived the Holocaust if they all had AR-15's?

[clear thinker]

Btw they just identified the guy as a disgruntled TV worker.
Although it doesn't make sense.
At least not from that station.

It looks like a hate crime.

[ShlockDoc]

Question: Would more Jews have survived the Holocaust if they all had AR-15's?

Who knows but it would have been a heck of a fight for the Nazis to round them up...

[whYME]

If I had a dime for every time I heard that argument, I wouldn't have to churn credit cards anymore.

First, if you are worried about a sudden change in our government to a fascist dictatorship, then you best be stocking up on AR-15's with loads of ammo. You should also stock up on grenades and RPG's. It wouldn't hurt to also acquire a couple of Black Hawk helicopters.

If the United States Third Infantry shows up on your lawn, I'm not sure how long your 9mm handgun is going to hold them off for.

Second, how many people are buying guns specifically for this reason?

Third, what are the probabilities of this happening, and is it worth the deaths of daycare children because of this paranoia?

Fourth, why do Jews still live in the UK where guns are banned? They should be running for their lives in case another Hitler takes over!

1. Of course if they showed up on "my" lawn I'd be no match for them, but if the knowledge that every lawn they showed up on they'd be met with gunfire would help keep things in check.
But you're right, citizens should be able to own RPGs if that's what it takes for them to have a fighting chance.

And no, I don't expect to see this in my lifetime, but if you think it can't happen...

2. That's irrelevant.

3. The first step in answering this question is determining how many "deaths of daycare children" (I assume that would deaths which wouldn't have occurred had there been no guns minus lives saved by guns)

4. Why is this a Jewish issue? Jews are a tiny fraction of those killed by murderous dictatorships in the last century.

[zale]

Question: Would more Jews have survived the Holocaust if they all had AR-15's?

Impossible to know. The Jews weren't expecting to be exterminated. By the time they realized what was going on it was too late to do anything about it. There were Jews who believed everything would be fine.

In order for the Jews to set up a successful resistance, they would have to do it before they were herded into ghettos. Even so, it's clear from the Warsaw Ghetto uprising that at some point or another they would lose the battle against a full blown Nazi army. Partisan groups did very little to stop the Nazi war machine.

If entire armies surrendered to the Nazis, like the Polish and the French, it would be logical to assume that lightly armed Jews would eventually lose the battle. 

[zale]

1. Of course if they showed up on "my" lawn I'd be no match for them, but if the knowledge that every lawn they showed up on they'd be met with gunfire would help keep things in check.
But you're right, citizens should be able to own RPGs if that's what it takes for them to have a fighting chance.

And no, I don't expect to see this in my lifetime, but if you think it can't happen...

You brought up the argument of Hitler and Stalin, and then you pretty much admit that it's unlikely to happen. As you yourself admit, if it "could" happen, then your little gun isn't going to help you anyway. Thus the Hitler argument is a dead-end.

Would you be afraid to live in the UK? What if you were offered a great job there?

2. That's irrelevant.

Of course it is. Weren't YOU the one who just stated that we need guns because Hitler would have loved gun control?

3. The first step in answering this question is determining how many "deaths of daycare children" (I assume that would deaths which wouldn't have occurred had there been no guns minus lives saved by guns)

We know that a crazed lunatic took a gun from his home that was legally owned by his mother and killed 20 children in a daycare. Please show me where twenty children were saved by a armed citizen with a gun. (not "could have been saved", but actually saved.)

4. Why is this a Jewish issue? Jews are a tiny fraction of those killed by murderous dictatorships in the last century.

You are correct.  I brought up Jews because they have been targeted throughout history.

[Aj3042]

Question: Would more Jews have survived the Holocaust if they all had AR-15's?

Absolutely. Anybody worth his salt knows the Nazis hid their goals from the Jews because had they known it wouldn't have happened on the scale it did. If the Warsaw ghetto uprising happened 3 years earlier, and it happened not only in Warsaw but all over (both in ghettos and before they were forced into them) the Holocaust wouldn't have gotten anywhere near where it did.
I was asked to chime in but I'm going to let @clearthinker deal with this one.

IMO every shul, yeshiva, and Jewish school should have multiple armed people (teachers and maybe students too if they're old enough) walking around. In addition every sane and responsible American has a right to own a gun given the tenuous situation the world is in. If anything was to happen and this country would descend into anarchy nobody would be able to protect us except ourselves. And don't think it can't happen-read congressional assessments about nuclear EMP, cyberterrorism and more-our enemies can do it and are waiting for the chance. In addition, the threat of the gov going tyrannical is absolutely real and GUNS DO GUARD AGAINST THAT like with that rancher in Nevada that organized a militia and the gov backed off to avoid a firefight.

[zale]

Absolutely. Anybody worth his salt knows the Nazis hid their goals from the Jews because had they known it wouldn't have happened on the scale it did. If the Warsaw ghetto uprising happened 3 years earlier, and it happened not only in Warsaw but all over (both in ghettos and before they were forced into them) the Holcaust wouldn't have gotten anywhere near where it did.
I was asked to chime in  but I'm going to let @clearthinker deal with this one.

• This explains why the AR-15's would NOT have helped. The Nazis hid their goals and slowly weakened the Jews, as I stated earlier. By the time they were being put in cattle cars it was too late.
  
• The Warsaw Ghetto uprising ended as soon as the Nazis brought in their tanks and artillery and blew it up. The uprising never had a fighting chance. It merely took the Nazis by surprise that they encountered any resistance at all and decided to pull out for a short while.

IMO every shul, yeshiva, and Jewish school should have multiple armed people (teachers and maybe students too if they're old enough) walking around.

I agree that trained armed guards should be placed in every Jewish facility. The cost is unfortunately too high.

In addition every sane and responsible American has a right to own a gun given the tenuous situation the world is in.

Agreed in theory. In reality there is no way to truly know unless the person has a clear history of mental illness, and even then people slip through.

If anything was to happen and this country would descend into anarchy nobody would be able to protect us expect ourselves. And don't think it can't happen-read congressional assessments about nuclear EMP, cyberterrorism and more-our enemies can do it and are waiting for the chance.

The great zombie apocalypse.

Your AR-15 won't help you. You will need an underground shelter and 25 years worth of food supplies. How are you going to daven with a minyan? can you fit ten Jews and their families in your shelter? Will you have enough food for everyone? Where are you going to get medical supplies from... ahh, nevermind.. too many questions.

In addition, the threat of the gov going tyrannical is absolutely real and GUNS DO GUARD AGAINST THAT like with that rancher in Nevada that organized a militia and the gov backed off to avoid a firefight.

They backed off to avoid a firefight because they didn't want to kill civilians! If they WANTED to kill civilians they could have obliterated them in ten minutes flat.

[whYME]

You brought up the argument of Hitler and Stalin, and then you pretty much admit that it's unlikely to happen.

Unlikely doesn't mean it won't happen.  And having an armed population is part of what makes it so unlikely.

As you yourself admit, if it "could" happen, then your little gun isn't going to help you anyway. Thus the Hitler argument is a dead-end.

I think you missed my point.
Even if "my" gun won't help "me" as an individual, having a well armed citizenry is a deterrent against a tyrannical government and helps the population as a whole.

Would you be afraid to live in the UK? What if you were offered a great job there?

How is that relevant? right now I live in NYC where only criminals are allowed to have guns...

Of course it is. Weren't YOU the one who just stated that we need guns because Hitler would have loved gun control?

The reason why people (I'm talking about those who buy/own them legally, not criminals) are buying their guns is irrelevant to this argument, it's the fact that they have them that matters.

And it's not that Hitler "would have loved" gun control, it's that he was smart enough to know that that's where he needed to start.

We know that a crazed lunatic took a gun from his home that was legally owned by his mother and killed 20 children in a daycare. Please show me where twenty children were saved by a armed citizen with a gun. (not "could have been saved", but actually saved.)

I was hesitant to get into this part because it's a whole parshah of it's own, I probably shouldn't have...
Are the only lives that matter to this question daycare children? or are we talking about any innocent lives?

OK, that's it for me for now. No time for this crap. I'll check back in again tonight...

Note to self: don't comment on controversial topics on the internet on a day you're planning on getting work done.