Poll

Do You Own A Gun

Of Course
31 (19.9%)
No
57 (36.5%)
I plan on getting one eventually
67 (42.9%)
I used to
1 (0.6%)

Total Members Voted: 156

Author Topic: Guns Master Thread  (Read 135899 times)

Offline zale

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #740 on: October 03, 2017, 11:21:56 AM »

according to at least one report they found ammonium nitrate in his trunk. What if he actually made bombs and used them in conjunction with a plane?

My point is a gun is just a tool. Right now it may be the easiest tool available, but someone hell-bent on killing as many people as possible will find another tool (which may be more or less effective depending on the individual's resources, resourcefulness and  capabilities)


This can be argued both ways. On the one hand, yes, if an individual is hell-bent on committing mass murder, he will find a way. On the other hand, the vast majority of psychopaths will ONLY commit mass murder if it's not too complicated to carry out.

Driving a truck or a plane into a crowd requires a certain type of psychosis. It requires being up close and personal with your victims. You need to be a hardcore religious or political fanatic. A random disgruntled angry 64 year old will likely not do this.

The fact is, high powered rifles are the easiest way to commit murder on a large scale. It was too easy. The people at this concert were described as "fish in a bowl". He can shoot at them while perched comfortably in his 32nd floor hotel room and it's almost impossible for anyone to shoot back. (without a sniper rifle and professional sniper training). He doesn't even have to make eye contact with his victims.

There is a legitimate argument to make here that if he were unable to acquire the weapons and ammo legally, he would not go out of his way to acquire them on the black market. (The fact that he had a partially constructed bomb in his car kind of supports the argument that it was just too much work to do and shooting was much easier.) At the end, he may have just taken some pills or simply smash and jump out of the window.

I'm not anti-gun, but if a solution for further gun control was proposed, I would be willing to at least consider it.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #741 on: October 03, 2017, 11:32:36 AM »
I'm not anti-gun, but if a solution for further gun control was proposed, I would be willing to at least consider it.
Yeah, that's the thing about any of the major issues. We as a country let the extremes of the issue consume our attention, instead of having an actual discussion/debate somewhere in the middle. Everyone is more worried about countering the extreme position on the other side than addressing the underlying problems.

Offline whYME

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #742 on: October 03, 2017, 11:34:04 AM »
That's just being pedantic.
That probably wasn't fair to say. I'm sure there are people reading this who thought "ban" here was meant literally.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #743 on: October 03, 2017, 11:36:51 AM »
Reddit commenter FWIW

“It definitely wasn't modified semi-automatic rifles.
Even with a trigger modification, the upper receiver isn't designed for that volume of rounds, and would have jammed. The barrels would have melted pretty quickly too with that rate of fire.
I've fired the M4 (AR military variant) on three round burst, and that thing jams all the time. And that's only three rounds. And it's designed for that!
Half an hour of sustained fire, mag after mag? Had to be fully automatic. Likely several fully automatics.
One other issue: how were the gunshots heard over the concert music from the Mandelay, 1500 feet away? I can't hear s** five feet from me at a concert.”

And another-
“From everything I've heard described (particularly the range, kill ratio, and volume of fire) this sounds like more than an ordinary military assault rifle firing full auto. Given the range and effective kill ratio, it sounds 30 caliber (e.g., .308) instead of merely .223, and given the hundreds of rounds fired by presumably one person in a relatively short period of time, that would seem to indicate a belt-fed instead of magazine fed. IOW, this all sounds like the kind of carnage of a belt fed, 30 caliber M60 machine gun.”

That's pretty much BS.  Pretty easy to get a drop-in auto sear and most barrels would handle the volume.  Also, many people already build AR-15s with M16 bolt carriers.

Lol and silencers let you shoot someone in broad daylight, and nobody hears it. Just like the movies.

They are... if you're shooting subsonic ammo with a bolt action.  It's amazing how people think silencers are either dead silent, or still loud.  The answer is both, and anywhere in between.

First I have heard of these was yesterday. They need to be banned.

I have one and keep the ATF letter with it at all times that states it's legal.  I actually thought it sounded like bump firing but the pic released showed a stationary stock. 

Offline as2

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #744 on: October 03, 2017, 11:57:16 AM »


They are... if you're shooting subsonic ammo with a bolt action.  It's amazing how people think silencers are either dead silent, or still loud.  The answer is both, and anywhere in between.
When was the last time you saw someone using a bolt action pistol with a silencer in a movie?
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Offline whYME

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #745 on: October 03, 2017, 12:02:56 PM »
This can be argued both ways. On the one hand, yes, if an individual is hell-bent on committing mass murder, he will find a way. On the other hand, the vast majority of psychopaths will ONLY commit mass murder if it's not too complicated to carry out.

Driving a truck or a plane into a crowd requires a certain type of psychosis. It requires being up close and personal with your victims. You need to be a hardcore religious or political fanatic. A random disgruntled angry 64 year old will likely not do this.

The fact is, high powered rifles are the easiest way to commit murder on a large scale. It was too easy. The people at this concert were described as "fish in a bowl". He can shoot at them while perched comfortably in his 32nd floor hotel room and it's almost impossible for anyone to shoot back. (without a sniper rifle and professional sniper training). He doesn't even have to make eye contact with his victims.

There is a legitimate argument to make here that if he were unable to acquire the weapons and ammo legally, he would not go out of his way to acquire them on the black market. (The fact that he had a partially constructed bomb in his car kind of supports the argument that it was just too much work to do and shooting was much easier.) At the end, he may have just taken some pills or simply smash and jump out of the window.

I'm not anti-gun, but if a solution for further gun control was proposed, I would be willing to at least consider it.
You may be right. I wonder if there's any real data that supports either side? The fact that people choose the path of least resistance doesn't necessarily mean they won't put in any effort if necessary.

One thing I would argue is about lumping a plane and truck together. with the plane, by the time you get up close and personal you're pretty much committed and it's probably too late to change your mind.


Regardless of all that, even if you are correct, there's still the need to evaluate how many lives would be saved by any legislation and what the cost will be. We need to look at the net gain or loss, not just how many lives might be saved in mass shooting incidents.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #746 on: October 03, 2017, 12:08:13 PM »
When was the last time you saw someone using a bolt action pistol with a silencer in a movie?

A suppressed 9mm or .22 shooting subsonic rounds is pretty darn quiet.

Offline whYME

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #747 on: October 03, 2017, 12:19:07 PM »
A suppressed 9mm or .22 shooting subsonic rounds is pretty darn quiet.
+1

I've shot a silenced .22 rifle. While it was a lot louder than I expected, it wasn't very loud. It was basically a loud click from the mechanism of the gun, not much sound from the bullet.


They are... if you're shooting subsonic ammo with a bolt action.  It's amazing how people think silencers are either dead silent, or still loud.  The answer is both, and anywhere in between.
I was gonna say something similar. Bear in mind that the specific weapon being discussed is a suppressed AR15 which (I don't have any firsthand knowledge, but FWIU) is still rather loud.



Offline Aaaron

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #748 on: October 03, 2017, 12:33:15 PM »
+1

I've shot a silenced .22 rifle. While it was a lot louder than I expected, it wasn't very loud. It was basically a loud click from the mechanism of the gun, not much sound from the bullet.

I was gonna say something similar. Bear in mind that the specific weapon being discussed is a suppressed AR15 which (I don't have any firsthand knowledge, but FWIU) is still rather loud.

With subsonic ammo (assuming 223/556), it's also very quiet; you'll only hear the bolt.  However, a standard AR won't cycle since those loads don't have enough powder.  With standard ammo, it's not much quieter than without the suppressor. 

Offline zale

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #749 on: October 03, 2017, 01:17:30 PM »
You may be right. I wonder if there's any real data that supports either side? The fact that people choose the path of least resistance doesn't necessarily mean they won't put in any effort if necessary.

I doubt there is any scientific data on this, but that doesn't stop me from voicing my personal opinion.  ::)

My personal opinion, based on the data we have at the moment, is that this man would probably not commit mass murder if he would not be able to acquire those weapons legally. If he really killed himself after 10-15 minutes of shooting (as per some reports), then he's too cowardly to go the extra mile.

The people that would make the extra effort are the religious fanatics that believe it is their life's mission to murder people.

Another personal opinion I have is that the Left immediately exploiting this tragedy to push gun control and blame Republicans and the NRA are actually making the Right LESS willing to come to the table. If the Left would just shut up, there is a pretty good chance that Republicans would at their own volition be willing to impose stricter gun laws. Now that this is a Left vs Right thing, all the Right wants is to make sure the Left doesn't get their way.


Offline skyguy918

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #750 on: October 03, 2017, 01:57:43 PM »
Another personal opinion I have is that the Left immediately exploiting this tragedy to push gun control and blame Republicans and the NRA are actually making the Right LESS willing to come to the table. If the Left would just shut up, there is a pretty good chance that Republicans would at their own volition be willing to impose stricter gun laws. Now that this is a Left vs Right thing, all the Right wants is to make sure the Left doesn't get their way.
I agree that the left getting hysterical, as they do with every issue, doesn't help anything. But second amendment issues are pretty fundamental to the right. Not sure normal discourse is really possible on this.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #751 on: October 03, 2017, 01:58:45 PM »
Why does everyone say he is a coward for committing suicide. Have you tried it?
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Offline whYME

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #752 on: October 03, 2017, 02:10:05 PM »
Not sure normal discourse is really possible on this.
The biggest impediment to normal discourse is that any attempt at any new gun laws is treated by both sides as an attack on the outer defenses, one step forward towards the ultimate goal of total ban (or something close.)

(Of course it's also difficult to have a normal discourse when one side is usually lacking a basic fundamental understanding of the different types of weapons and their capabilities.)

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #753 on: October 03, 2017, 03:28:20 PM »
That's just being pedantic. when I (and I assume CM as well) said "ban" I meant considered class III, not literally banned.
Should be regulated the same as a full auto weapon.
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Offline somefield

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Offline as2

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #755 on: October 03, 2017, 04:33:37 PM »
Why does everyone say he is a coward for committing suicide. Have you tried it?
Not personally, but I know of many who have. They admit it is a cowardly approach.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #756 on: October 03, 2017, 04:36:19 PM »
Not personally, but I know of many who have. They admit it is a cowardly approach.
It just seems it would be harder to shoot yourself.
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Offline as2

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #757 on: October 03, 2017, 04:38:34 PM »
It just seems it would be harder to shoot yourself.
It may be a brave act, but the concept is cowardly. For instance, lazy people will carry 400lbs of groceries in one trip just to avoid doing it in 2. They are essentially working harder out of laziness. This person is making a bold move, only by giving in to his cowardly self.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #758 on: October 03, 2017, 04:44:00 PM »
You may be right. I wonder if there's any real data that supports either side?

Listened to these a while ago, don't recall exactly what aspects they discuss:
https://gimletmedia.com/episode/guns/
https://gimletmedia.com/episode/gun-control/

The show producers lean left.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Guns Master Thread
« Reply #759 on: October 03, 2017, 07:37:54 PM »
Keep hearing no new laws would have prevented this. Banning HCM after Sandy Hook would have helped.
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