The truth about children - Warning: Controversial

[Dan]

the joy in watching them explore the world and growing up is amazing.

I only have 18 months experience, but +1,000.
But it's much harder than any non-parent can imagine.  It certainly gives me a whole new appreciation for my parents and tolerance for parents with kids on a plane.

[moko]

I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example
the joys of having children and the tzar are apples and oranges
I have yet to see a parent lose a child and say "oh that one he a hard one anyway"

[churnbabychurn]

I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example
the joys of having children and the tzar are apples and oranges
I have yet to see a parent lose a child and say "oh that one he a hard one anyway"

Good point, I find the whole discussion of the OP a little disturbing. Its one thing to discuss coping....

[Centurion]

and ask any bonei olam / a time parent...
with all the "hardships" they thank g-d every day!!
think positive-
i saw a cute bumper sticker...
"be nice to your kids - they pick your nursing home"

[yehuda S]

If having children is a chiyuv then why is it so unacceptable to say it's not enjoyable (at times)? Fasting on Yom Kippur is unpleasant, and no one looks at you reproachfully when you say you are feeling weak and hungry. They don't say "How could you be so ungrateful? Don't you feel spiritual?!"

There is something about the chiyuv to have children that makes people say that every moment is a joy and pure unfiltered virgin nachas.

[Dan]

I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example
the joys of having children and the tzar are apples and oranges
I have yet to see a parent lose a child and say "oh that one he a hard one anyway"

Hate to break it to you, but that's one messed up analogy.

[robi]

With kids as well. In our circles many have kids so young they haven't even had a moment to have that feeling of wanting kids or feeling them missing from their homes/lives.

I said exactly that, with some תורה, at my daughters kiddush, before our first anniversary. I was saying it as hakoras hatov, Bh I never had to experience that.

[WhyAich]

If having children is a chiyuv then why is it so unacceptable to say it's not enjoyable (at times)? Fasting on Yom Kippur is unpleasant, and no one looks at you reproachfully when you say you are feeling weak and hungry. They don't say "How could you be so ungrateful? Don't you feel spiritual?!"

There is something about the chiyuv to have children that makes people say that every moment is a joy and pure unfiltered virgin nachas.

It's because you and I don't appreciate Yom Kippur, if you were counting millions you wouldn't be thinking about food.

And the first point about children not being enjoyable is IMO immature.  You want it to always be good and easy? It doesn't exist. The way to look at things and gain perspective is to look at the bigger picture.

Again, I'm not negating that one can feel overwhelmed or stressed out at times., that's normal. But to say  therefore it isn't good is not right.

(Rocking my 3 week old as I type this

[moko]

If having children is a chiyuv then why is it so unacceptable to say it's not enjoyable (at times)? Fasting on Yom Kippur is unpleasant, and no one looks at you reproachfully when you say you are feeling weak and hungry. They don't say "How could you be so ungrateful? Don't you feel spiritual?!"

There is something about the chiyuv to have children that makes people say that every moment is a joy and pure unfiltered virgin nachas.

u have a point on the chiyuv aspect but there is also a natural inclination to want children (not only in the religious world-although more so it would seem) and therefore your'e parentheses is very important many mitzvos don't seem enjoyable at times.
I recently overheard a conversation between 2 wealthier people. One was saying to the other that he has a hard giving tzedakah to "these" organizations (ie: bonei olam, A time)   bec. after the parents have the children it's just a burden on them so he feels like is placing the burden on them and what for. he said just leave it up to Hashem if He wants to give He will. (as an aside it is also true that things that come with a lot of effort are generally appreciated more)
But this just points to the natural inclination to have children and be osek bikiyumu shel olam . If it was just for the mitzvah then a chomesh is where the chiyuv stops. on treatments  it goes way above a chomesh.

sorry about my ramble-just some of my thoughts on the general topic-take it or leave it (or delete it )

[moko]

Hate to break it to you, but that's one messed up analogy.

is it messed up be. it's extreme or bec. it isn't comarable? IYHO

[WhyAich]

BS. In fact your misunderstanding of our religion is part of whats causing OPs problem. Keeping Shabbos is an absolute requirement. Procreation beyond a first boy and girl is at most מצווה קיומית, like tzedaka (after the first perutta). The only difference is that the gemara says פרו ורבו overrides other mizvos because of the sevara of לשבת יצרה, however no where does it say that applies also after the first son & daughter.

OP addresses another issue, of whether having more kids is negative for them/previous kids. It is an old moral question, should blind people procreate or not. Chizkeyahu didn't want to bear children because he saw in nevuah they would be reshaim, but hashem told him:

בהדי כבשי דרחמנא למה לך? מאי דמפקדת, איבעי לך למעבד. ומה דניחא קמיה קודשא בריך הוא, ליעביד!

Yup. This stuff has nothing to do with Halacha. I think this has nothing to do with the topic.

If its hard for you and you can't handle more than one kid I'm sure you can get a heter to not have 2.

This is more of a personal issue. Kids a great but they do come with challenges. Can you handle them. That's all

[moko]

Yup. This stuff has nothing to do with Halacha. I think this has nothing to do with the topic.

If its hard for you and you can't handle more than one kid I'm sure you can get a heter to not have 2.

This is more of a personal issue. Kids a great but they do come with challenges. Can you handle them. That's all

+1 I heard of people who didnt get a heter bec. they were embarrassed to ask

[robi]

+1 I heard of people who didnt get a heter bec. they were embarrassed to ask

I call bs on that. Or at least I hope so

[Dan]

is it messed up be. it's extreme or bec. it isn't comarable? IYHO

Both.
OP is complaining about having child rearing thrust upon him before he was ready due to "community standards" and that he can't even bring up the topic in public without being shamed.
I applaud him for having the cojones to admit to that.  Not everyone is mature enough to be a parent at 18-23 years old and absolutely nothing is being done to prepare them.

What in the world does that have to do with you never hearing of a parent who was happy to lose a child G-d forbid because they were too hard?!?!?

[yehuda S]

I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example

Uh most people view death as the ultimate suffering. So why would they want to exchange pain for super pain? If people were absolutely certain of a happier life after death I think a lot of them would be lining up. As it is there are lots of suicides.

[moko]

I call bs on that. Or at least I hope so

that they were embarrassed or that they could have gotten a heter
On the embarrassed part- welcome to the world- many men wont ask and women even more so if u have a comfortable relationship with your Rav consider yourself blessed

On the heter part check R' Moshe's, R' Moshe Shternbuch's and the Minchas Yitzchok's teshuvos on these matters.(I don't have the exact sources right now but shouldn't be hard to find. Hebrewbooks etc.) All these great Poskim have Heterim for diff. sit. other than strictly life threatening.

and as always AYLOR

[Mocha]

I think there is a lot to be said on the issue of having kids at a young age.  And marriage as well for that matter.  My biggest concern with younger people getting married is them not even having had the time to experience the real want and need of feeling like there is something/someone missing from their lives.

With kids as well. In our circles many have kids so young they haven't even had a moment to have that feeling of wanting kids or feeling them missing from their homes/lives.

This is a really great post.

After waiting a couple of years after our marriage and then having my little girl, I cannot tell you how happy I am to spend whatever time I can with her. And her waking me up at nights barely bother me because I think about all the happiness she gives to me.

[robi]

that they were embarrassed or that they could have gotten a heter
On the embarrassed part- welcome to the world- many men wont ask and women even more so if u have a comfortable relationship with your Rav consider yourself blessed

On the heter part check R' Moshe's, R' Moshe Shternbuch's and the Minchas Yitzchok's teshuvos on these matters.(I don't have the exact sources right now but shouldn't be hard to find. Hebrewbooks etc.) All these great Poskim have Heterim for diff. sit. other than strictly life threatening.

and as always AYLOR

that they were embarrassed AND THEREFORE didn't ask. Poor child. Poor people

[george]

Aint no question 'bout it - kids can be difficult. But the attitude of OP and some others here begs the question, have you contemplated anything other than your own selfish comfort? What about your child?!?! This is a huge problem I see nowadays with parents: parents act as if children are there to make them (the parents) happy, satisfied, shep nachas. No! That's not the point of children! The point of children is to raise them to be decent, productive human beings and servants of their Creator. Its not about you!! Nachas is a wonderful byproduct that you hope to enjoy. But these attitudes turn nachas into a the whole goal. This can be EXTREMELY bad for the child. Any parent who thinks about this honestly will have to agree. We must RESPECT our children as human beings who have their own unique needs (and perhaps their own opinions that need to be given the time of day). We cannot treat them as nachas machines. If it will satisfy me more for my child to do x or go to school y etc. do we think for a moment, Is that the best thing for the child? He's a person also!

[moko]

Uh most people view death as the ultimate suffering. So why would they want to exchange pain for super pain? If people were absolutely certain of a happier life after death I think a lot of them would be lining up. As it is there are lots of suicides.

as is well known many deaths ostensibly dont involve suffering sayaf or lethal injection.
but what about the child analogy (the suffering there was that s/o lost a child but if raising them is a pain why the suffering)

again, I do do understand that these analogies are extreme
(if the mashal were the same as the nimshal it wouldnt be a mashal)