Author Topic: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial  (Read 51637 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2013, 12:08:34 AM »
the joy in watching them explore the world and growing up is amazing.
I only have 18 months experience, but +1,000.
But it's much harder than any non-parent can imagine.  It certainly gives me a whole new appreciation for my parents and tolerance for parents with kids on a plane.
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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2013, 12:15:59 AM »
I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example
the joys of having children and the tzar are apples and oranges
I have yet to see a parent lose a child and say "oh that one he a hard one anyway"

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2013, 12:19:10 AM »
I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example
the joys of having children and the tzar are apples and oranges
I have yet to see a parent lose a child and say "oh that one he a hard one anyway"
Good point, I find the whole discussion of the OP a little disturbing. Its one thing to discuss coping....

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2013, 12:20:46 AM »
and ask any bonei olam / a time parent...
with all the "hardships" they thank g-d every day!!
think positive-
i saw a cute bumper sticker...
"be nice to your kids - they pick your nursing home"
you can only make a first impression ONCE

Offline yehuda S

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2013, 12:22:08 AM »
If having children is a chiyuv then why is it so unacceptable to say it's not enjoyable (at times)? Fasting on Yom Kippur is unpleasant, and no one looks at you reproachfully when you say you are feeling weak and hungry. They don't say "How could you be so ungrateful? Don't you feel spiritual?!"

There is something about the chiyuv to have children that makes people say that every moment is a joy and pure unfiltered virgin nachas.
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Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2013, 12:23:28 AM »
I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example
the joys of having children and the tzar are apples and oranges
I have yet to see a parent lose a child and say "oh that one he a hard one anyway"
Hate to break it to you, but that's one messed up analogy.
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Offline robi

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2013, 12:30:28 AM »
With kids as well. In our circles many have kids so young they haven't even had a moment to have that feeling of wanting kids or feeling them missing from their homes/lives.
I said exactly that, with some תורה, at my daughters kiddush, before our first anniversary. I was saying it as hakoras hatov, Bh I never had to experience that.
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Offline WhyAich

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The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2013, 12:35:29 AM »
If having children is a chiyuv then why is it so unacceptable to say it's not enjoyable (at times)? Fasting on Yom Kippur is unpleasant, and no one looks at you reproachfully when you say you are feeling weak and hungry. They don't say "How could you be so ungrateful? Don't you feel spiritual?!"

There is something about the chiyuv to have children that makes people say that every moment is a joy and pure unfiltered virgin nachas.

It's because you and I don't appreciate Yom Kippur, if you were counting millions you wouldn't be thinking about food.

And the first point about children not being enjoyable is IMO immature.  You want it to always be good and easy? It doesn't exist. The way to look at things and gain perspective is to look at the bigger picture.

Again, I'm not negating that one can feel overwhelmed or stressed out at times., that's normal. But to say  therefore it isn't good is not right.

(Rocking my 3 week old as I type this :)
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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2013, 12:35:53 AM »
If having children is a chiyuv then why is it so unacceptable to say it's not enjoyable (at times)? Fasting on Yom Kippur is unpleasant, and no one looks at you reproachfully when you say you are feeling weak and hungry. They don't say "How could you be so ungrateful? Don't you feel spiritual?!"

There is something about the chiyuv to have children that makes people say that every moment is a joy and pure unfiltered virgin nachas.
u have a point on the chiyuv aspect but there is also a natural inclination to want children (not only in the religious world-although more so it would seem) and therefore your'e parentheses is very important many mitzvos don't seem enjoyable at times.
I recently overheard a conversation between 2 wealthier people. One was saying to the other that he has a hard giving tzedakah to "these" organizations (ie: bonei olam, A time)   bec. after the parents have the children it's just a burden on them so he feels like is placing the burden on them and what for. he said just leave it up to Hashem if He wants to give He will. (as an aside it is also true that things that come with a lot of effort are generally appreciated more)
But this just points to the natural inclination to have children and be osek bikiyumu shel olam . If it was just for the mitzvah then a chomesh is where the chiyuv stops. on treatments  it goes way above a chomesh.

sorry about my ramble-just some of my thoughts on the general topic-take it or leave it (or delete it ;))

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #69 on: January 04, 2013, 12:37:13 AM »
Hate to break it to you, but that's one messed up analogy.
is it messed up be. it's extreme or bec. it isn't comarable? IYHO

Offline WhyAich

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The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #70 on: January 04, 2013, 12:38:18 AM »
BS. In fact your misunderstanding of our religion is part of whats causing OPs problem. Keeping Shabbos is an absolute requirement. Procreation beyond a first boy and girl is at most מצווה קיומית, like tzedaka (after the first perutta). The only difference is that the gemara says פרו ורבו overrides other mizvos because of the sevara of לשבת יצרה, however no where does it say that applies also after the first son & daughter.

OP addresses another issue, of whether having more kids is negative for them/previous kids. It is an old moral question, should blind people procreate or not. Chizkeyahu didn't want to bear children because he saw in nevuah they would be reshaim, but hashem told him:

בהדי כבשי דרחמנא למה לך? מאי דמפקדת, איבעי לך למעבד. ומה דניחא קמיה קודשא בריך הוא, ליעביד!


Yup. This stuff has nothing to do with Halacha. I think this has nothing to do with the topic.

If its hard for you and you can't handle more than one kid I'm sure you can get a heter to not have 2.

This is more of a personal issue. Kids a great but they do come with challenges. Can you handle them. That's all
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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #71 on: January 04, 2013, 12:40:44 AM »
Yup. This stuff has nothing to do with Halacha. I think this has nothing to do with the topic.

If its hard for you and you can't handle more than one kid I'm sure you can get a heter to not have 2.

This is more of a personal issue. Kids a great but they do come with challenges. Can you handle them. That's all
+1 I heard of people who didnt get a heter bec. they were embarrassed to ask

Offline robi

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #72 on: January 04, 2013, 12:41:30 AM »
+1 I heard of people who didnt get a heter bec. they were embarrassed to ask
I call bs on that. Or at least I hope so
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Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #73 on: January 04, 2013, 12:43:12 AM »
is it messed up be. it's extreme or bec. it isn't comarable? IYHO
Both.
OP is complaining about having child rearing thrust upon him before he was ready due to "community standards" and that he can't even bring up the topic in public without being shamed.
I applaud him for having the cojones to admit to that.  Not everyone is mature enough to be a parent at 18-23 years old and absolutely nothing is being done to prepare them.

What in the world does that have to do with you never hearing of a parent who was happy to lose a child G-d forbid because they were too hard?!?!?
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Offline yehuda S

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #74 on: January 04, 2013, 12:45:09 AM »
I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example

Uh most people view death as the ultimate suffering. So why would they want to exchange pain for super pain? If people were absolutely certain of a happier life after death I think a lot of them would be lining up. As it is there are lots of suicides.
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