Author Topic: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial  (Read 68355 times)

Offline yehuda S

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2013, 12:55:06 AM »
Both.
OP is complaining about having child rearing thrust upon him before he was ready due to "community standards" and that he can't even bring up the topic in public without being shamed.
Not everyone is mature enough to be a parent at 18-23 years old and absolutely nothing is being done to prepare them.


In brief, lots of preparation goes into preparing to get married. Mashgichim will help guys decide when they are ready to marry, every date is disected, Chosson Kallah classes are taken. As well they should. Marriage is a very big change and preparation is called for. However being a parent is a much bigger change. Your spouse can take care of themself; your baby cannot. But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
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Offline moko

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2013, 12:58:25 AM »
This is a really great post.

After waiting a couple of years after our marriage and then having my little girl, I cannot tell you how happy I am to spend whatever time I can with her. And her waking me up at nights barely bother me because I think about all the happiness she gives to me.
(as an aside it is also true that things that come with a lot of effort are generally appreciated more)
slightly diff. situation, but I share your feelings 110%

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2013, 01:00:20 AM »
Both.
OP is complaining about having child rearing thrust upon him before he was ready due to "community standards" and that he can't even bring up the topic in public without being shamed.
I applaud him for having the cojones to admit to that.  Not everyone is mature enough to be a parent at 18-23 years old and absolutely nothing is being done to prepare them.

What in the world does that have to do with you never hearing of a parent who was happy to lose a child G-d forbid because they were too hard?!?!?

prepare? What are twenty years of jewish education for? At minimun one should have the right perspective, life's not a vacation or a picnic its a being rewarded for facing challanges.

Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2013, 01:00:33 AM »
In brief, lots of preparation goes into preparing to get married. Mashgichim will help guys decide when they are ready to marry, every date is disected, Chosson Kallah classes are taken. As well they should. Marriage is a very big change and preparation is called for. However being a parent is a much bigger change. Your spouse can take care of themself; your baby cannot. But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
I'll add a +1 to that.  We can and should do a better job preparing 18-23 year olds to be better parents and have a better perspective on child-rearing and the stress that pregnancy and having a child can cause to a marriage.

To bury our heads in the ground on divorce stats and say that people should just learn to suck it up is missing the bigger picture.  The stress of being newly married with kids does in many a marriage and yes the kids do suffer the most.  But we are great as a community on burying our heads in the ground.
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Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2013, 01:01:12 AM »

prepare? What are twenty years of jewish education for? At minimun one should have the right perspective, life's not a vacation or a picnic its a being rewarded for facing challanges.
Jewish education taught you how to be a good father and share responsibilities with your spouse?
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Offline moko

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2013, 01:01:31 AM »
In brief, lots of preparation goes into preparing to get married. Mashgichim will help guys decide when they are ready to marry, every date is disected, Chosson Kallah classes are taken. As well they should. Marriage is a very big change and preparation is called for. However being a parent is a much bigger change. Your spouse can take care of themself; your baby cannot. But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
+100

Offline robi

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2013, 01:06:27 AM »
But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
-1 that's exactly how rabbi jacobs in BMG starts his freezer opening shmuess. And he expounds on it.
"I'd rather be hated for who I am, then loved for who I'm not"

Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2013, 01:07:41 AM »
-1 that's exactly how rabbi jacobs in BMG starts his freezer opening shmuess. And he expounds on it.
Care to expound?
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Offline moko

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2013, 01:07:46 AM »

prepare? What are twenty years of jewish education for? At minimun one should have the right perspective, life's not a vacation or a picnic its a being rewarded for facing challanges.
knowing that life has it's challenges doesn't teach u how to parent (physically, mentally or hashkaficlly)
learning what those challenges might be, how to possibly deal with them and great role models (a heavy dose of common sense also never hurt) will prepare somewhat
My chosson rebbe/mentor  (who is IMHO a great mechanech) did a follow up on his own after having our child on some chinuch pointers even for babies

Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2013, 01:09:17 AM »
knowing that life has it's challenges doesn't teach u how to parent (physically, mentally or hashkaficlly)
learning what those challenges might be, how to possibly deal with them and great role models (a heavy dose of common sense also never hurt) will prepare somewhat
My chosson rebbe/mentor  (who is IMHO a great mechanech) did a follow up on his own after having our child on some chinuch pointers even for babies
Bingo.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2013, 01:15:34 AM »
Jewish education taught you how to be a good father and share responsibilities with your spouse?
They sure tried.. ;) There is definitely room to improve in the teaching of good midos in our schools. A proper perspective on life and decent bein odom lechaveiro traits are vital ingredients to a good marriage with young kids. These are part of the curriculum no? I do recommend chinuch classes though, but these are for bigger kids not babies.

Offline robi

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2013, 01:16:08 AM »
Care to expound?
I was disagreeing with the first part. He basically challenges you to ask yourself why you want to get married, if you realize  that marriage is not just Lala land, and that even if you think you're ready for marriage, are you ready for children? Do you know your responsible for their chinuch? Do you know they can and will be hard? Etc...
"I'd rather be hated for who I am, then loved for who I'm not"

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2013, 01:19:33 AM »
Uh most people view death as the ultimate suffering. So why would they want to exchange pain for super pain? If people were absolutely certain of a happier life after death I think a lot of them would be lining up. As it is there are lots of suicides.
Gosh..So many things wrong with this one.
I hope you get through your hardships though

Offline moko

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2013, 01:22:42 AM »
They sure tried.. ;) There is definitely room to improve in the teaching of good midos in our schools. A proper perspective on life and decent bein odom lechaveiro traits are vital ingredients to a good marriage with young kids. These are part of the curriculum no? I do recommend chinuch classes though, but these are for bigger kids not babies.
there are chinuch classes for babies/toddlers too.
One of the things in follow up was when to discipline a baby/toddler and what to be mechanech them in
in regards infants a lot of it is about not being selfish

Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2013, 01:24:11 AM »
I was disagreeing with the first part. He basically challenges you to ask yourself why you want to get married, if you realize  that marriage is not just Lala land, and that even if you think you're ready for marriage, are you ready for children? Do you know your responsible for their chinuch? Do you know they can and will be hard? Etc...
Interesting.
Chabad Rabbis want the opposite though even with 8 years in "the system" the topic of marriage and child-rearing was not mentioned once.
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=18596&alias=rabbis-urge-to-marry-young
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #95 on: January 04, 2013, 01:24:49 AM »
there are chinuch classes for babies/toddlers too.
One of the things in follow up was when to discipline a baby/toddler and what to be mechanech them in
in regards infants a lot of it is about not being selfish

When they stick their fingers in the electric socket is all

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #96 on: January 04, 2013, 01:26:58 AM »
Interesting.
Chabad Rabbis want the opposite though even with 8 years in "the system" the topic of marriage and child-rearing was not mentioned once.
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=18596&alias=rabbis-urge-to-marry-young
Remember the mishna says 18 yo. I know it doesnt fit into the american mentality where 30 year olds act like toddlers...

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #97 on: January 04, 2013, 01:28:57 AM »
"The generation has changed," he said in an interview. "It's not like it once was. Today, the less one 'roams around' - the better,

Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2013, 01:30:55 AM »
Remember the mishna says 18 yo. I know it doesnt fit into the american mentality where 30 year olds act like toddlers...
And Rivkah got married at 3.  Some things change...

The real reason why people get married early though isn't usually because they want to but because "the good ones will be gone" coupled with that if they wait then people will wonder what's wrong with them.
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Offline yehuda S

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2013, 01:38:34 AM »
Don't forget, just because someone is supposed to be prepared for parenthood doesn't mean they are. So if I say "wait a minute I may be 22 but I'm not sure I have the tools for this" would a legitimate answer be "sorry you were supposed to have matured by now"?

People need guidance commensurate with where they are, not with where they are supposed to be.
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