Author Topic: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial  (Read 49850 times)

Offline moko

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2013, 12:49:52 AM »
I call bs on that. Or at least I hope so
that they were embarrassed or that they could have gotten a heter
On the embarrassed part- welcome to the world- many men wont ask and women even more so if u have a comfortable relationship with your Rav consider yourself blessed

On the heter part check R' Moshe's, R' Moshe Shternbuch's and the Minchas Yitzchok's teshuvos on these matters.(I don't have the exact sources right now but shouldn't be hard to find. Hebrewbooks etc.) All these great Poskim have Heterim for diff. sit. other than strictly life threatening.

and as always AYLOR

Offline Mocha

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #76 on: January 04, 2013, 12:51:02 AM »
I think there is a lot to be said on the issue of having kids at a young age.  And marriage as well for that matter.  My biggest concern with younger people getting married is them not even having had the time to experience the real want and need of feeling like there is something/someone missing from their lives.

With kids as well. In our circles many have kids so young they haven't even had a moment to have that feeling of wanting kids or feeling them missing from their homes/lives.
This is a really great post.

After waiting a couple of years after our marriage and then having my little girl, I cannot tell you how happy I am to spend whatever time I can with her. And her waking me up at nights barely bother me because I think about all the happiness she gives to me.

Offline robi

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #77 on: January 04, 2013, 12:51:47 AM »
that they were embarrassed or that they could have gotten a heter
On the embarrassed part- welcome to the world- many men wont ask and women even more so if u have a comfortable relationship with your Rav consider yourself blessed

On the heter part check R' Moshe's, R' Moshe Shternbuch's and the Minchas Yitzchok's teshuvos on these matters.(I don't have the exact sources right now but shouldn't be hard to find. Hebrewbooks etc.) All these great Poskim have Heterim for diff. sit. other than strictly life threatening.

and as always AYLOR
that they were embarrassed AND THEREFORE didn't ask. Poor child. Poor people
"I'd rather be hated for who I am, then loved for who I'm not"

Offline george

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2013, 12:52:06 AM »
Aint no question 'bout it - kids can be difficult. But the attitude of OP and some others here begs the question, have you contemplated anything other than your own selfish comfort? What about your child?!?! This is a huge problem I see nowadays with parents: parents act as if children are there to make them (the parents) happy, satisfied, shep nachas. No! That's not the point of children! The point of children is to raise them to be decent, productive human beings and servants of their Creator. Its not about you!! Nachas is a wonderful byproduct that you hope to enjoy. But these attitudes turn nachas into a the whole goal. This can be EXTREMELY bad for the child. Any parent who thinks about this honestly will have to agree. We must RESPECT our children as human beings who have their own unique needs (and perhaps their own opinions that need to be given the time of day). We cannot treat them as nachas machines. If it will satisfy me more for my child to do x or go to school y etc. do we think for a moment, Is that the best thing for the child? He's a person also!

Offline moko

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2013, 12:54:46 AM »
Uh most people view death as the ultimate suffering. So why would they want to exchange pain for super pain? If people were absolutely certain of a happier life after death I think a lot of them would be lining up. As it is there are lots of suicides.
as is well known many deaths ostensibly dont involve suffering sayaf or lethal injection.
but what about the child analogy (the suffering there was that s/o lost a child but if raising them is a pain why the suffering)

again, I do do understand that these analogies are extreme
(if the mashal were the same as the nimshal it wouldnt be a mashal)

Offline yehuda S

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2013, 12:55:06 AM »
Both.
OP is complaining about having child rearing thrust upon him before he was ready due to "community standards" and that he can't even bring up the topic in public without being shamed.
Not everyone is mature enough to be a parent at 18-23 years old and absolutely nothing is being done to prepare them.


In brief, lots of preparation goes into preparing to get married. Mashgichim will help guys decide when they are ready to marry, every date is disected, Chosson Kallah classes are taken. As well they should. Marriage is a very big change and preparation is called for. However being a parent is a much bigger change. Your spouse can take care of themself; your baby cannot. But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
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Offline moko

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2013, 12:58:25 AM »
This is a really great post.

After waiting a couple of years after our marriage and then having my little girl, I cannot tell you how happy I am to spend whatever time I can with her. And her waking me up at nights barely bother me because I think about all the happiness she gives to me.
(as an aside it is also true that things that come with a lot of effort are generally appreciated more)
slightly diff. situation, but I share your feelings 110%

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2013, 01:00:20 AM »
Both.
OP is complaining about having child rearing thrust upon him before he was ready due to "community standards" and that he can't even bring up the topic in public without being shamed.
I applaud him for having the cojones to admit to that.  Not everyone is mature enough to be a parent at 18-23 years old and absolutely nothing is being done to prepare them.

What in the world does that have to do with you never hearing of a parent who was happy to lose a child G-d forbid because they were too hard?!?!?

prepare? What are twenty years of jewish education for? At minimun one should have the right perspective, life's not a vacation or a picnic its a being rewarded for facing challanges.

Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2013, 01:00:33 AM »
In brief, lots of preparation goes into preparing to get married. Mashgichim will help guys decide when they are ready to marry, every date is disected, Chosson Kallah classes are taken. As well they should. Marriage is a very big change and preparation is called for. However being a parent is a much bigger change. Your spouse can take care of themself; your baby cannot. But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
I'll add a +1 to that.  We can and should do a better job preparing 18-23 year olds to be better parents and have a better perspective on child-rearing and the stress that pregnancy and having a child can cause to a marriage.

To bury our heads in the ground on divorce stats and say that people should just learn to suck it up is missing the bigger picture.  The stress of being newly married with kids does in many a marriage and yes the kids do suffer the most.  But we are great as a community on burying our heads in the ground.
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Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2013, 01:01:12 AM »

prepare? What are twenty years of jewish education for? At minimun one should have the right perspective, life's not a vacation or a picnic its a being rewarded for facing challanges.
Jewish education taught you how to be a good father and share responsibilities with your spouse?
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Offline moko

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2013, 01:01:31 AM »
In brief, lots of preparation goes into preparing to get married. Mashgichim will help guys decide when they are ready to marry, every date is disected, Chosson Kallah classes are taken. As well they should. Marriage is a very big change and preparation is called for. However being a parent is a much bigger change. Your spouse can take care of themself; your baby cannot. But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
+100

Offline robi

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2013, 01:06:27 AM »
But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
-1 that's exactly how rabbi jacobs in BMG starts his freezer opening shmuess. And he expounds on it.
"I'd rather be hated for who I am, then loved for who I'm not"

Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2013, 01:07:41 AM »
-1 that's exactly how rabbi jacobs in BMG starts his freezer opening shmuess. And he expounds on it.
Care to expound?
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Offline moko

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2013, 01:07:46 AM »

prepare? What are twenty years of jewish education for? At minimun one should have the right perspective, life's not a vacation or a picnic its a being rewarded for facing challanges.
knowing that life has it's challenges doesn't teach u how to parent (physically, mentally or hashkaficlly)
learning what those challenges might be, how to possibly deal with them and great role models (a heavy dose of common sense also never hurt) will prepare somewhat
My chosson rebbe/mentor  (who is IMHO a great mechanech) did a follow up on his own after having our child on some chinuch pointers even for babies

Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2013, 01:09:17 AM »
knowing that life has it's challenges doesn't teach u how to parent (physically, mentally or hashkaficlly)
learning what those challenges might be, how to possibly deal with them and great role models (a heavy dose of common sense also never hurt) will prepare somewhat
My chosson rebbe/mentor  (who is IMHO a great mechanech) did a follow up on his own after having our child on some chinuch pointers even for babies
Bingo.
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