Author Topic: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial  (Read 50524 times)

Offline YankyDoodle

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 753
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2013, 09:17:21 AM »
Well seeing that the source of that quote is to someone who didn't want to have kids, I would say it's appropriate, though every case should be dealt with on its own merits with a CLOR.
Not saying it applies here but food for thought.

You can't draw a rule from one example. In addition he didn't want to have any kids... To want to give your kids the attention they need (and every situation is unique both for the parents and the children) is a completely different situation.

Offline YankyDoodle

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 753
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2013, 09:20:49 AM »
2 separate issues.


1. People having too many kids they can't take care of properly (whether financially, physically, emotionally) .


2.  Raising children is hard.
Many aren't as prepared as they could be for what it entails. And even though it may seem like everyone else is doing it just fine, no problems, that isn't true.
It's hard. Just a fact. Not a bad one. Just a truth.

Good point. However #2 can lead to #1. If its too difficult then it may be worthwhile too limit the #of kids. Eth in life is difficult, each person has to use his/her judgment to know whether they are doing what's ultimately best for their family... And yes that may include having fun and other "selfish" things.

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4223
  • Total likes: 15
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2013, 09:21:51 AM »

It's hard. Just a fact. Not a bad one. Just a truth.
=1 i think that's what it basically boils down too. hardships aren't what make people miserable, its hardships that you weren't expecting. Our great grandparents had hardships enormously greater than ours (imagine a life with no DDF :P ) yet on average they were no less happy than us. As long as you're prepared and know what you are headed for the trip can and should be extremely rewarding. hard, stressful at times but rewarding.

On a side note, JEM recently put out a video with the Rebbe's view on BC (called "The Greatest Blessing") I watched it with my wife, and I think is a must for every Lubavitch (or other) couple.
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4223
  • Total likes: 15
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2013, 09:22:55 AM »
You can't draw a rule from one example. In addition he didn't want to have any kids... To want to give your kids the attention they need (and every situation is unique both for the parents and the children) is a completely different situation.
That's why I said every case is different and should be discussed on its own merits. however I do know that that quote is often used in the reasoning of a Psak.
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline HelpMe

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 3496
  • Total likes: 6
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2013, 09:26:54 AM »
From an outsider it gotta look like that. But typically we are all running happy health lives.
Sometimes the outsider has a better understanding about what is going on than the person involved.
"Elvis Has Left The Building"

Offline Galitzyaner

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 2602
  • Total likes: 11
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #125 on: January 04, 2013, 09:30:44 AM »
Halacha is something one is absolutely required to do, either because G-d commanded or because chazal commanded. Beis Din force one to do anything he is halchically required to.

Getting married before 20 is a guideline set forth by chazal, beis din aren't kofe someone to do that
Who ever said anything about beis din being kofeh anyone?
This is a halachik obligation, end of story.  Where do these other mayses and pshetlach ("hanhogo"/beis din kofin) come in?
Beis din is not "kofin" you to lay tefilin or shake lulav either, yet IIRC it's an obligation.

Offline sky121

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 11387
  • Total likes: 123
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #126 on: January 04, 2013, 09:34:32 AM »
Good point. However #2 can lead to #1. If its too difficult then it may be worthwhile too limit the #of kids. Eth in life is difficult, each person has to use his/her judgment to know whether they are doing what's ultimately best for their family... And yes that may include having fun and other "selfish" things.


Let's assume that the general feeling in the forums is that
1. Raising children is a lot harder than expected.
2. Having children IS indeed very fulfilling and one of life's greatest joys.



   I think the OP was just bringing up point number 1 and the idea that people don't necessarily talk about how hard it is, especially with your first child and all the changes it brings to your life.


And let's assume that most of us here will be having children at a younger age than most in society.  That definitely effects the challenges of having children as well.



As for topics of having too many kids, or feeling pressured into having kids when you don't want to- that is a different story.
I know plenty of people who are pressured into having more kids just to "keep up with the Cohen's" -
 
And plenty of people who have kids one after the other because they believe it is the right thing to do.

One of my good friends grew up in a house of 13 where they never had enough to eat, never had money for clothes when needed and never got the attention they deserved.  He was one of the older kids and totally came to resent his parents for it. (Btw, I know plenty of people who grew up in houses with 13 kids and were loved and cared for so I am not knocking large families.) There are people like this in every community. But again, this is a slightly different topic then just talking about points 1 and 2.


"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline meshugener

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 7078
  • Total likes: 39
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: DDF
  • Programs: Amex Platinum, Chase Freedom 10X10 Exclusives, Avis Presidents Club, National Executive, Hertz 5 Star, Hilton Gold, Accor Platinum, Hyatt Platinum, Marriott Silver, SPG Gold, Club Carlson Gold
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #127 on: January 04, 2013, 09:47:08 AM »
One point I would like to mention.
We seem to be confused here, we're discussing 2 separate things in one shot.
1. Having children young,
2. Having children too close each other.

Issue #2 is indeed a problem, our girl is 18 months and no, we're not yet ready for another one.
To the member who said people are not embarrassed to ask their LOR for a heter: sorry, but you have no idea what's going on on your planet.
But re issue #1, it all depends on your feelings and willingness. I understand some fellows here are like 'fly or die', they feel restricted when they can not fly around the world and have fun like without kids, but that's what I consider either selfish or amateur.
Sorry if I offended anyone.

ETA: to include a point to issue #1:
Working mothers:
You have no idea what you're missing.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 09:51:56 AM by meshugener »
Love me or hate me. I still love you.

Offline yehuda S

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 776
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #128 on: January 04, 2013, 09:48:55 AM »
I know that the times i get into a fight with my husband it always stemmed to something i saw on FB that so and so looks so happy always why cant we be like that.



WTH :-X???


This is a Major, Major problem today. It is called Facebook Depression and if you can't relate or understand it you probably don't use social media too much. People spend all day staring at photos of their friend's amazing lives, vacations, parties, large circles of loving friends and families, and they think of how sad and lonely they themselves are. It really affects them. Of course they are only seeing the 5% of their friend's life that gets posted online. And to compete they do the same thing. And their friend sees that and posts even more glamorous stuff. It's cyclical and everyone feels the same but they are all so busy trying to impress the next guy with how awesome they have it.
Work is what you do between vacations.

Offline yehuda S

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 776
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #129 on: January 04, 2013, 09:53:21 AM »
Once you have a child, you don't think so negatively about childrern. period.

...and this is the attitude that makes people ashamed to say they aren't coping well with parenthood. Thanks for illustrating it for everyone. Suffer in silence because you are supposed to feel differently about your child.
Work is what you do between vacations.

Offline MosheP

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 1509
  • Total likes: 3
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #130 on: January 04, 2013, 09:54:15 AM »
In reading all the posts I see one thing in common behind the complaints; Jealousy!

Jealousy is something that creeps up in a marriage, when raising kids etc. You have a young guy, he sees his friend got married and seems to be having a blast. He went on a honeymoon, is getting supported by parents in-laws, has a nice apartment, car, clothes, a pretty wife who cooks for him, cleans up after him etc. He is jealous and wants to get married, he doesn't necessarily realize that is why he wants it. He thinks he is ready to commit to being a spouse and in the near future a father. 

He wakes up after 7 Berachos and realizes that its not all fun and games. There is work for him to do as well. His wife may have a job ad be unable to go on a long honeymoon, his parents/in-laws may be unable to help him financially. His apartment may not be as nice, or car as new and fancy. His wife may be too tired after a full days work to cook lavish meals and keep a spotless house. He then hears about all the vacations others are going on, and gets more jealous. This leads to extreme unhappiness. They then realize that they are expecting a child. If they are unhappy in their own lives, there is no way for them to be happy as parents.

Instead of looking at what others have or don't have. Look at yourselves and try and be happy with your lot. I think this rings rue for married people, single people, parents, and people who haven't yet been blessed with children. Its not always easy, but it is very liberating. Don't  do things because of what others do, or will say and think. Getting married, having children is a choice (albeit a Mitzva as well) someone who hasn't had children or gotten married is in no ways a lesser Jew or person then others who have.

Be the best that YOU can be. Be as happy as YOU can in your situation. Make the choices that are right for YOU. Learn how to be happy for someone else without instantly wanting that for yourself.

If you have trouble or negative feelings, talk to someone. Your spouse, parent, friend, Rebbe, Rav, teacher, therapist, barber, shaitel macher etc. Just talking makes you feel better. I don't think an online forum is the right place to discuss such sensitive and prevalent matters.

Offline Name Changed

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 4846
  • Total likes: 5
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Avis Presidents Club, National Executive Elite, Hertz Presidents Circle, Sixt Platinum, SPG Gold, eBay Platinum
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #131 on: January 04, 2013, 09:58:46 AM »
One point I would like to mention.
We seem to be confused here, we're discussing 2 separate things in one shot.
1. Having children young
2. Having children too close each other
I was gonna say something similar, that really these 2 points are 2 totally different topics.

(@meshugener - I really agree with you that people are too embarrassed to ask LOR for heters, at least that what it seems in Lakewood.)

I dont think anyone could argue at the fact that having children at the age 0f 20-25 is a somewhat young age, we could still be (are) somewhat immature.
I am trying to figure out what the OP point is. Is he just trying to let out his personal frustration? - That our chinuch system never prepared him for the fact that having children is not easy.

I would add, as difficult as having children is, and as stressful as it could be, I think it really is the biggest Bracha, and the happiest thing to have a child. What better than walking into your house, and have your child run up to you with a smile on their facer, yelling Totty, and give you a big hug?

+1 MosheP
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 10:03:22 AM by Name Changed »

Offline bubkiz

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2010
  • Posts: 607
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #132 on: January 04, 2013, 10:01:22 AM »
In reading all the posts I see one thing in common behind the complaints; Jealousy!

Jealousy is something that creeps up in a marriage, when raising kids etc. You have a young guy, he sees his friend got married and seems to be having a blast. He went on a honeymoon, is getting supported by parents in-laws, has a nice apartment, car, clothes, a pretty wife who cooks for him, cleans up after him etc. He is jealous and wants to get married, he doesn't necessarily realize that is why he wants it. He thinks he is ready to commit to being a spouse and in the near future a father. 

He wakes up after 7 Berachos and realizes that its not all fun and games. There is work for him to do as well. His wife may have a job ad be unable to go on a long honeymoon, his parents/in-laws may be unable to help him financially. His apartment may not be as nice, or car as new and fancy. His wife may be too tired after a full days work to cook lavish meals and keep a spotless house. He then hears about all the vacations others are going on, and gets more jealous. This leads to extreme unhappiness. They then realize that they are expecting a child. If they are unhappy in their own lives, there is no way for them to be happy as parents.

Instead of looking at what others have or don't have. Look at yourselves and try and be happy with your lot. I think this rings rue for married people, single people, parents, and people who haven't yet been blessed with children. Its not always easy, but it is very liberating. Don't  do things because of what others do, or will say and think. Getting married, having children is a choice (albeit a Mitzva as well) someone who hasn't had children or gotten married is in no ways a lesser Jew or person then others who have.

Be the best that YOU can be. Be as happy as YOU can in your situation. Make the choices that are right for YOU. Learn how to be happy for someone else without instantly wanting that for yourself.

If you have trouble or negative feelings, talk to someone. Your spouse, parent, friend, Rebbe, Rav, teacher, therapist, barber, shaitel macher etc. Just talking makes you feel better. I don't think an online forum is the right place to discuss such sensitive and prevalent matters.
+1.
Very well said.

Offline HelpMe

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 3496
  • Total likes: 6
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #133 on: January 04, 2013, 12:02:33 PM »
What better than walking into your house, and have your child run up to you with a smile on their facer, yelling Totty, and give you a big hug?
That is a Kodak moment. You havenít seen anything yet. Wait till they get older.
"Elvis Has Left The Building"

Offline MosheP

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 1509
  • Total likes: 3
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #134 on: January 04, 2013, 12:04:36 PM »
That is a Kodak moment. You havenít seen anything yet. Wait till they get older.

Are you implying it gets better? Or that these moments are few and far between?