Author Topic: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial  (Read 119466 times)

Offline real-brisker

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #320 on: September 02, 2013, 08:40:57 AM »
CV - Not all of us have beards. ;)

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #321 on: September 02, 2013, 08:43:12 AM »
Sorry, i don't buy into the whole 'in the olden days everything was great' idea. In the olden days life was just as hard (if not harder), raising kids was always just as hard as it is today. If anything it was made harder by the fact that birth control was not an option and families grew large whther the parents were capable or not. The only reason we have this idealized view of 'the good old days' is because in a sense only the good happy parts were preserved (there were no internet messaging boards to vent to so all the vents stayed in private conversations).

I recently came across a Teshuvah from before the war (I can't remember now from who), in response to someone looking for a Heter to abstain from having children (for lack of reliable BC methods) because his wife was having a hard time, the Teshuvah was saying how in the 'olden days' it was the common practice to abstain for a year after having a child to preserve the mothers' health, but 'these days' the generations are lower and such abstination may lead to problems.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #322 on: September 02, 2013, 08:49:54 AM »
Sorry, i don't buy into the whole 'in the olden days everything was great' idea.
That’s because you did not live through the depression. If you had you would know how much better than all had it.
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Offline SamKey

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #323 on: September 02, 2013, 08:58:00 AM »
Sorry, i don't buy into the whole 'in the olden days everything was great' idea. In the olden days life was just as hard (if not harder), raising kids was always just as hard as it is today. If anything it was made harder by the fact that birth control was not an option and families grew large whther the parents were capable or not. The only reason we have this idealized view of 'the good old days' is because in a sense only the good happy parts were preserved (there were no internet messaging boards to vent to so all the vents stayed in private conversations).

I recently came across a Teshuvah from before the war (I can't remember now from who), in response to someone looking for a Heter to abstain from having children (for lack of reliable BC methods) because his wife was having a hard time, the Teshuvah was saying how in the 'olden days' it was the common practice to abstain for a year after having a child to preserve the mothers' health, but 'these days' the generations are lower and such abstination may lead to problems.
I partially agree as one of the curses given to Eve (and all women thereafter) was the pain of bringing up children so it was never easy never will be. But @zale has a good point on how we have a harder time enduring this pain.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #324 on: September 02, 2013, 09:00:13 AM »
I partially agree as one of the curses given to Eve (and all women thereafter) was the pain of bringing up children so it was never easy never will be.
???
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline SamKey

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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #326 on: September 02, 2013, 09:03:53 AM »
I partially agree as one of the curses given to Eve (and all women thereafter) was the pain of bringing up children so it was never easy never will be. But @zale has a good point on how we have a harder time enduring keeping our mouths shut about this pain.
FTFY

Offline SamKey

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #327 on: September 02, 2013, 09:05:38 AM »

Offline CountValentine

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #328 on: September 02, 2013, 09:06:11 AM »
Genesis 3:16
The pain (curse) is about labor not about raising children, correct?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #329 on: September 02, 2013, 09:08:32 AM »
Quote from: CountValentine link=topic=23873.msg577332#msg577332 date=137812 7171
The pain (curse) is about labor not about raising children, correct?
+1

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #330 on: September 02, 2013, 09:10:49 AM »
lol but I disagree
Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad thing. I think the ability to vent to friends is a great way to help us cope with the hardships of child rearing (or any hardships for that matter).

Offline real-brisker

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #331 on: September 02, 2013, 09:10:50 AM »
CV +1
SamKey what cheder did you go to ;)?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #332 on: September 02, 2013, 09:14:15 AM »
How many of you believe “the bearing of children as one of the most rewarding and joyous experiences of a woman's life.”
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #333 on: September 02, 2013, 09:43:20 AM »
Bearing or raising?

Offline zale

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #334 on: September 02, 2013, 10:13:09 AM »
Sorry, i don't buy into the whole 'in the olden days everything was great' idea. In the olden days life was just as hard (if not harder), raising kids was always just as hard as it is today. If anything it was made harder by the fact that birth control was not an option and families grew large whther the parents were capable or not. The only reason we have this idealized view of 'the good old days' is because in a sense only the good happy parts were preserved (there were no internet messaging boards to vent to so all the vents stayed in private conversations).

I recently came across a Teshuvah from before the war (I can't remember now from who), in response to someone looking for a Heter to abstain from having children (for lack of reliable BC methods) because his wife was having a hard time, the Teshuvah was saying how in the 'olden days' it was the common practice to abstain for a year after having a child to preserve the mothers' health, but 'these days' the generations are lower and such abstination may lead to problems.

Who said everything was great in the olden days? As a matter of fact, most things sucked - especially for Jews. (Aside from using rocks for toilet paper and other "conveniences"..)

Nevertheless, SOME values were better. For one, there was importance placed on raising a family. Women were not taunted as being a loser for choosing to stay at home and raise a family. Men were not taunted as "locking themselves in prison" for getting married. There was a special place in the heart of society for a family. People felt that this was the "pursuit of happiness" that every American is entitled to.

Today, this is CLEARLY not the case. Today's society popularizes the idea of "living free" for as long as possible. Getting married young is basically looked at as stupid and foolish, and having children even more so. (Because today the "pursuit of happiness" is associated with the "pursuit of fun", and if you have children you diminish your chances of having a lot of fun).

Your argument about birth control is irrelevant here. Birth control is an excellent thing in my opinion. It allows you to choose to have children only when you feel physically and emotionally ready for it. It also prevents a great deal of child abuse which occurs due to "unwanted children". However, this has nothing to do with the fact that having children is practically frowned upon in society, which in turn makes parents feel that spending their whole day taking care of their children is distracting them from what they "really" want to do.

Offline zale

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #335 on: September 02, 2013, 10:19:27 AM »
How many of you believe “the bearing of children as one of the most rewarding and joyous experiences of a woman's life.”

This varies from woman to woman, but if you took a poll today, you would probably get this most common response:

Depends when, depends where. Day to day not always is the joy and reward apparent. But as your child grows and reaches certain milestones in their life, there is no greater joy or reward that one can have.

-Ask a parent what it feels like to see their child crawl for the first time.
-Ask a parent what it feels like to see their child walk for the first time.
-Ask a parent what it feels like to see their child talk for the first time.
-Ask a parent what it feels like to see their child getting married.

Offline SamKey

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #336 on: September 02, 2013, 12:52:37 PM »
The pain (curse) is about labor not about raising children, correct?
The commentators(albeit Jewish ones) say it's going on both. And you asked about curses
CV +1
SamKey what cheder did you go to ;)?
one that taught רש"י

Offline SamKey

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #337 on: September 02, 2013, 12:58:34 PM »
http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/eve-midrash-and-aggadah
Quote
  The Rabbis then expand upon this punishment: “Your pangs” is the anguish of impregnation; “in childbearing” is the suffering of pregnancy; “in pain” is the affliction of miscarriages; “shall you bear” is the pain of childbirth; “children” is the suffering involved in the rearing of children   

Offline yehuda S

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #338 on: September 02, 2013, 01:11:03 PM »
I commend your post, and there is good advice in there (nothing beats actual experience).

However, I would delve a bit deeper to get to the root of the "problem".

I think that many parents find their children to be "hard" because the parents don't find dealing with their children to be a mission in and of itself. Today, parents just want to distract their children as much as possible, so that the parents can do their own thing. Let's face it, we just want to get our kids into bed so that we can get time for ourselves.

Years ago, this was not an issue. The stay at home parent (usually the mom) fully accepted taking care of their children to be a mission in and of itself, and did it the same way you would do any job that you were dedicated to (and much more..).

What happened over the years is two things:

1. Society basically convinced young people that parenting is boring and not accomplishing anything. It's far better to go out into the world and "do something" with your life.

Now, even though Frum people supposedly "don't buy into this", it still had and continues to have a powerful affect on young Frum couples. These couples have children, as that is what is expected, but they don't fully believe that investing every minute with the children is an accomplishment. They therefore find having children extremely difficult. When you have to spend your whole day taking care of your kids and running after them instead of doing what YOU want to do, NO KIDDING it is hard!

Women are told today that being a stay at home mom is basically being a loser and a slave. Idiots like Sheryl Sandberg basically make women feel stupid for wanting to spend their life taking care of their children. As a result, women who are by nature very nurturing and kind begin feeling miserable after having children. They feel trapped and unhappy. How should they not feel like they are "in jail" when their child basically ties up their whole day!

2. There are too many distractions today. For some reason, couples are finding that they need to take more and more vacations in order to keep the peace in the home. Parents used to take vacations for the kids benefit, today, it's for their own benefit. So if the kids are fussy along the way, it "ruined" their vacation. (Ironic isn't it? How could the children ruin YOUR vacation if it was all about them?)

If you are feeling that your children are difficult, ask yourself if it is really because they are truly difficult, or because you want to get back to what you want to do, and they are simply getting in the way.

+100. very wise words!

I don't remember if this aspect was brought up before but given that we are on a forum mostly dedicated to travelling and seeing the world, it is easy to see why having children can make things difficult.

For sure young people today are travelling places way more than people who are in their 30's ever did. Doing that with children (and enjoying it) is practically impossible and can end up making people feel very trapped.

It is sad that women (and men) are made to feel inferior for having children. Social media like Facebook has increased this by serving (IMO) to provoke one response: Jealousy. This website consists of people posting pictures of themselves partying and having fun and merely makes others feel lonely and sad. Then they try to outdo the others with an even more glamorous picture.

However, they are all lonely and depressed while tricking all the others into thinking they are living the life of a celebrity. What is the point in that??
Work is what you do between vacations.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #339 on: September 02, 2013, 01:31:38 PM »
However, they are all lonely and depressed while tricking all the others into thinking they are living the life of a celebrity. What is the point in that??
Look at like miles/points against cash back. Why can’t you have both? If you want to marry young then go for it. Then party like there is no tomorrow until you are thirty. Start having children and take on the responsibilities that comes with it. You can still have nice vacations with your children while they are growing up. Once they reach a certain age you can have vacations without the kids if you so choose.
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