Author Topic: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial  (Read 119558 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #360 on: September 02, 2013, 04:55:03 PM »
I wouldn't say the typical Chosson is like that though there probably are some...
Somewhere between some and typical then ;)
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Offline rots5

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #361 on: September 02, 2013, 05:09:15 PM »
+100, I even know of one particular Rosh Yeshiva that makes all his talmidim go on BC for the first year that they're married. IMIAHO( in my innocent and humble opinion) not such a bad idea to implement.obviously this particular R"Y had certain type of talmidim. But in today's day and age a lot of people's(your right not everyone) marriages would benefit from this.
Don't get me wrong, I think children are the biggest blessing in this world and are worth everything we do and go through for them. But.....just putting it out there.
In certain communities where it's basically a race to see who can have more children quicker and if c"v you aren't expecting immediately following your wedding people look at you and wonder..... People can't even take into account if it might be better for their marriage to have a period of just the two of them to bond/sort things out/adjust and then be fully ready to be the best parents that they can be. Just my 2c's.
you have a very valid point. And the RY prob is a smart man if he is dealing with those certain people. But i find the issue is now a days couples don't realize to take adtv of the situation that its just the two of them without kids. There are people i know who i respect very much, who don't have kids and they take full advantage of the fact in a good way, they go for walks and go on vacations and learn how to bond with one another. While I've personally have seen where couples just turn into such miserable people bec they didnt have kid 9 months after there wedding.

I started noticing lately some couples who just got married def need time to acclimate to one another. The prob is that they are so used "friends friends friends" they don't realize its ok to live a life just the two of them.

 
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #362 on: September 02, 2013, 05:13:24 PM »
What's the joke?
I thought the part I bolded was funny. I guess you didn't?
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Offline meshugener

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #363 on: September 02, 2013, 05:15:56 PM »
I thought the part I bolded was funny. I guess you didn't?
No.
Is that a private joke between you and Dan?
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Offline metziah

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #364 on: September 02, 2013, 05:23:40 PM »

Never mind that the typical chosson who comes to the chasanim institute in CLE thinks we're dealing with eggs like those from a chicken and are convinced that one can't get pregnant on the first night  ::)
I think they tell them that to put an emphasis on the fact that nothing is wrong with them if they don't get it right the first time.

Offline yehuda S

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #365 on: September 02, 2013, 05:25:03 PM »
This might come across as Apikorsus, but I believe that if one (or their spouse) doesn't feel mentally and physically ready to have a child, they should be able to use it.
Where does finances fit into all this? Having a kid costs a fortune :-(

I'm convinced many people aren't having children only because of the financial burden. Where's the obligation printed (in this fifth shulchan orech) that the parents have to bear the burden of deep financial distress to have more kids?

Actually can someone point out where there is ANY obligation to have more than one boy and one girl?? I'm pretty sure that's the only requirement.
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Offline Dan

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #366 on: September 02, 2013, 05:26:37 PM »
I think they tell them that to put an emphasis on the fact that nothing is wrong with them if they don't get it right the first time.
They don't tell them anything. There's just no education whatsoever in the system for how to date, how to deal with a wife, with kids, etc, etc.
So everything is just secondhand misinfo.
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Offline metziah

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #367 on: September 02, 2013, 05:27:18 PM »

you have a very valid point. And the RY prob is a smart man if he is dealing with those certain people. But i find the issue is now a days couples don't realize to take adtv of the situation that its just the two of them without kids. There are people i know who i respect very much, who don't have kids and they take full advantage of the fact in a good way, they go for walks and go on vacations and learn how to bond with one another. While I've personally have seen where couples just turn into such miserable people bec they didnt have kid 9 months after there wedding.

I started noticing lately some couples who just got married def need time to acclimate to one another. The prob is that they are so used "friends friends friends" they don't realize its ok to live a life just the two of them.

 
That's another one of the many reasons why things are way different today. The "friends" aspect. That aspect has so many branches to it.

Offline metziah

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #368 on: September 02, 2013, 05:33:55 PM »




Actually can someone point out where there is ANY obligation to have more than one boy and one girl?? I'm pretty sure that's the only requirement.
Well that's why(according to the Torah) פרו ורבו ו ומלאו את הארץ we are put on this world. Lets not lose focus why we are here, this discussion was about why things might be different today. But no one can argue that the world was created for generations of עם ישראל.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #369 on: September 02, 2013, 05:41:53 PM »

Actually can someone point out where there is ANY obligation to have more than one boy and one girl?? I'm pretty sure that's the only requirement.
Look up the Shu"a mentioned above, I don't have it handy now but pretty sure it discusses it.

They don't tell them anything. There's just no education whatsoever in the system for how to date, how to deal with a wife, with kids, etc, etc.
So everything is just secondhand misinfo.
+too much

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #370 on: September 02, 2013, 05:43:00 PM »
Where does finances fit into all this? Having a kid costs a fortune :-(

I'm convinced many people aren't having children only because of the financial burden. Where's the obligation printed (in this fifth shulchan orech) that the parents have to bear the burden of deep financial distress to have more kids?

Actually can someone point out where there is ANY obligation to have more than one boy and one girl?? I'm pretty sure that's the only requirement.
There is clearly a requirement to have as many children as possible, chazal learn this from the posuk of "laerev al tanach yodecho".
This topic is not at all a "Fifth chelek of shulchan oruch topic". All of these halochos and heteirim are discussed at great length in shulchan oruch E'H siman alef.
The consensus is that one cannot push of the mitzva for financial considerations.
See the B"S seif katan 17 where he says that if having kids will cause fights, one can push off...
Point is, speak to a competent Rov to discus any personal considerations. Many times though, if the couple would have healthier hashkofos they would not have some sheilos or hetirim because  some things would not bother them so much. This is where hashkafa gets in to this topic. 

Offline CountValentine

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #371 on: September 02, 2013, 05:44:03 PM »
No.
Is that a private joke between you and Dan?
I don't think Dan was making a joke but feel free to ask him. I thought it was funny.
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Offline metziah

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #372 on: September 02, 2013, 05:50:59 PM »

Where does finances fit into all this? Having a kid costs a fortune :-(

I'm convinced many people aren't having children only because of the financial burden. Where's the obligation printed (in this fifth shulchan orech) that the parents have to bear the burden of deep financial distress to have more kids?
With this you are really touching on a completely different discussion. Every person is different with where they are holding in their level of emunah and bitachon. Each person knows but most of all, he has to know Truthfully where he's holding in that regard. There are some people who truly believe that with each kid comes more brocha in parnasah nothing wrong with that its just a very high מדרגה.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #373 on: September 02, 2013, 06:03:02 PM »

shu"o E"H siman 1 is hilchos peru urebu. Not to say that there are not heteirim to push of the mitzva aseh mideorayso, its simply not a "fifth shulchan oruch".

So what's the heter for a woman to decline martial relations on a particular night without calling a LOR?

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #374 on: September 02, 2013, 06:06:34 PM »
So what's the heter for a woman to decline martial relations on a particular night without calling a LOR?
Where does it say she is obligated?

Offline Menachem613

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #375 on: September 02, 2013, 06:08:33 PM »

Where does it say she is obligated?

She's causing her husband to be oiver on a D'oiraisah.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #376 on: September 02, 2013, 06:29:03 PM »
P'ru Ur'vu is an obligation on the man, the wife has no obligation to have relations if it will cause her discumfort/pain/annoyance whatever.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #377 on: September 02, 2013, 06:30:43 PM »
So what's the heter for a woman to decline martial relations on a particular night without calling a LOR?
See taz there, also see siman 76.6.

Are we really going to study hilchos P"V beiyun over here?  :o

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #378 on: September 02, 2013, 06:32:32 PM »
She's causing her husband to be oiver on a D'oiraisah.
Are you genuinely interested in this sugiya? because you raise good points... If you are interested take the time to study it in depth, all your kashas are addressed

Offline Menachem613

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #379 on: September 02, 2013, 06:43:15 PM »

Are you genuinely interested in this sugiya? because you raise good points... If you are interested take the time to study it in depth, all your kashas are addressed

Yes.  I was looking into seforim that deal with this topic but couldn't find any.