Author Topic: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial  (Read 119542 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #380 on: September 02, 2013, 06:46:36 PM »
Yes.  I was looking into seforim that deal with this topic but couldn't find any.
Shulchan oruch and all the nosei keilim in even haezer siman 1 and 76  talk about this. Does that not count??
IIRC they address your specific issue also.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #381 on: September 02, 2013, 06:50:37 PM »

Shulchan oruch and all the nosei keilim in even haezer siman 1 and 76  talk about this. Does that not count??
IIRC they address your specific issue also.

When is Artscroll coming out with a book?

Offline yehuda S

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #382 on: September 02, 2013, 07:01:01 PM »
. There are some people who truly believe that with each kid comes more brocha in parnasah nothing wrong with that its just a very high מדרגה.
Really,  explain then all the people collecting money to help marry off their 9 kids. Are they lying?

If someone comes collecting because instead of giving ten percent to charity they gave 50%, you would laugh at them. How is it different if they come because they chose to have children beyond their means?
Work is what you do between vacations.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #383 on: September 02, 2013, 07:21:14 PM »
Are you genuinely interested in this sugiya? because you raise good points... If you are interested take the time to study it in depth, all your kashas are addressed
Does he have Kushyos or Terutzim? ;)

Offline Menachem613

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #384 on: September 02, 2013, 07:26:48 PM »

Really,  explain then all the people collecting money to help marry off their 9 kids. Are they lying?

If someone comes collecting because instead of giving ten percent to charity they gave 50%, you would laugh at them. How is it different if they come because they chose to have children beyond their means?

Maybe if they had complete bitachon they wouldn't need the help.

Offline yehuda S

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #385 on: September 02, 2013, 07:40:27 PM »
Maybe if they had complete bitachon they wouldn't need the help.
Try telling them that instead of giving them your dollar.
Work is what you do between vacations.

Offline whYME

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #386 on: September 02, 2013, 07:44:30 PM »
Really,  explain then all the people collecting money to help marry off their 9 kids. Are they lying?
That's assuming their financial situation would be better if they had fewer children...

Increase in brocha doesn't necessarily have to mean that it will be relatively better

Offline yehuda S

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #387 on: September 02, 2013, 08:00:13 PM »
That's assuming their financial situation would be better if they had fewer children...

Increase in brocha doesn't necessarily have to mean that it will be relatively better
True.

And by the same logic everyone could just quit all their jobs because we have no way of knowing that we wouldn't have just as much money anyway, right?
Work is what you do between vacations.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #388 on: September 02, 2013, 08:02:31 PM »
Trust me, you will be hard pressed to find a LOR to allow any leniency due to financial constraints. The whole discussion is moot.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #389 on: September 02, 2013, 08:05:28 PM »

Trust me, you will be hard pressed to find a LOR to allow any leniency due to financial constraints. The whole discussion is moot.

Agree. There are a minority that believe that financial constraints can lead to marriage and mental issues...

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #390 on: September 02, 2013, 08:06:17 PM »
When is Artscroll coming out with a book?
Lol. Artscroll made everyone the talmid chachom.  NOT!

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #391 on: September 02, 2013, 08:07:12 PM »
Agree. There are a minority that believe that financial constraints can lead to marriage and mental issues...
The heter will be based on the marriage and mental issues, not purely financial.

Offline whYME

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #392 on: September 02, 2013, 08:14:37 PM »
And by the same logic everyone could just quit all their jobs because we have no way of knowing that we wouldn't have just as much money anyway, right?
In a sense, yes. You can't totally quit your job and expect money to fall from heaven, (i.e. you need to make a keli,) but it's important to realize that ultimately it's Hashem who determines how much you'll make.

Offline meshugener

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #393 on: September 02, 2013, 08:38:48 PM »
I see it in reality: the more kids I have the more I earn.
With each additional child I get an increase in food stamps, a raise in section 8 and so on.
There's clearly a god in heaven, rewarding us for following his commands.
Love me or hate me. I still love you.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #394 on: September 02, 2013, 08:47:07 PM »
I see it in reality: the more kids I have the more I earn.
With each additional child I get an increase in food stamps, a raise in section 8 and so on...
not to mention another SS# ;D

Offline Super Speed

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #395 on: September 02, 2013, 11:56:48 PM »
Where does finances fit into all this? Having a kid costs a fortune :-(

I'm convinced many people aren't having children only because of the financial burden. Where's the obligation printed (in this fifth shulchan orech) that the parents have to bear the burden of deep financial distress to have more kids?

Actually can someone point out where there is ANY obligation to have more than one boy and one girl?? I'm pretty sure that's the only requirement.
I'm embarrassed that I read this topic and even more embarrassed that I'm responding. It seems to me a lot of people here  don't believe in G-d. Who do you think supports you gives you life, money, happiness? Only the one above and do you think its hard for him to help you financially take care of a kid. We say in bentching that he supports everyone of us, do you not believe that? R"H is coming when your parnassa will be decided by him not by you and if you have more kids he will give you more even if you can't see it. Fact. Ksiva Vechasima Tova.


Offline sky121

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #396 on: September 03, 2013, 12:01:18 AM »
I'm embarrassed that I read this topic and even more embarrassed that I'm responding. It seems to me a lot of people here  don't believe in G-d. Who do you think supports you gives you life, money, happiness? Only the one above and do you think its hard for him to help you financially take care of a kid. We say in bentching that he supports everyone of us, do you not believe that? R"H is coming when your parnassa will be decided by him not by you and if you have more kids he will give you more even if you can't see it. Fact. Ksiva Vechasima Tova.

If you have more kids he won't necessarily give you more.
That's not what we believe.
That's why there are rich people and poor people.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Super Speed

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #397 on: September 03, 2013, 12:08:31 AM »
If you have more kids he won't necessarily give you more.
That's not what we believe.
That's why there are rich people and poor people.
That's called Kfirah IM(ns)HO. If your poor you'll be poor with no kids or 10 and same for rich. He provides everyone with what they need. The people who come around collecting would need tzedakkah for something else if they didn't have kids, like doctor bills R"L.
(I Bl"n will not look back at this topic again as I feel bad I even looked at it to begin with. I'm shocked to learn that there are yidden that really think this way, forget about all the other garbage written upthread about how hard it is etc.)

Offline whYME

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #398 on: September 03, 2013, 12:09:58 AM »
That's called Kfirah IM(ns)HO. If your poor you'll be poor with no kids or 10 and same for rich. He provides everyone with what they need. The people who come around collecting would need tzedakkah for something else if they didn't have kids, like doctor bills R"L.
I wouldn't have said it so strongly, but +1.

Offline Ergel

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Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
« Reply #399 on: September 03, 2013, 12:17:53 AM »
The chovos halevavos is very clear about the chiyuv hishtadlus and being responsible when it comes to health and finances. Would you say if a person bought a Lexus convertible or paid revenue (ch"v) for a cx f ticket and couldn't afford it that God will provide exactly the same as he would have otherwise and he would have just the same? Not saying that having more kids is irresponsible (although I certainly see situations when I would think it is (when a meshulach comes collecting for his ten kids, three who are blind, two who have cp, etc. and he has no means tosupport any of it)) but please cool the rhetoric. And calling someone a kofer is not something to be done lightly and has serious ramifications
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.