The truth about children - Warning: Controversial

[sky121]

I don't know that there is one straight answer. Emunah and your relationship with Gd are all personal things. One person may feel that even though he doesn't have the money that Gd will provide for 'one more kid' while another may feel that it's his responsibility to not have another at a specific time when he cannot afford it.
I personally feel like choosing to not have more children when you feel like you can't afford it falls under 'Vchai Bahem'.
But again everyone's emunah is different. Not necessarily greater or lesser even.
 

[Dan]

The chovos halevavos is very clear about the chiyuv hishtadlus and being responsible when it comes to health and finances. Would you say if a person bought a Lexus convertible or paid revenue (ch"v) for a cx f ticket and couldn't afford it that God will provide exactly the same as he would have otherwise and he would have just the same? Not saying that this is irresponsible but please cool the rhetoric. And calling someone a kofer is not something to be done lightly and has serious ramifications

Not saying I necessarily disagree, but you're equating buying a Lexus or paying for F with having more kids?

[Ergel]

Not saying I necessarily disagree, but you're equating buying a Lexus or paying for F with having more kids?

No and I clearly stated that I don't (it's clearer in my edit)

[whYME]

Would you say if a person bought a Lexus convertible or paid revenue (ch"v) for a cx f ticket and couldn't afford it that God will provide exactly the same as he would have otherwise and he would have just the same?

I fail to see how H' giving additional brochos when you have more children = an inability to squander what he does provide to you.

[Ergel]

I fail to see how H' giving additional brochos when you have more children = an inability to squander what he does provide to you.

See my example from three words after you quoted me. And I agree most of the times it's not true. But to call someone a kofer for saying that is ludicrous. And to talk down to people and spew hateful rhetoric is inappropriate where I come from

[Dan]

See my example from three words after you quoted me. And I agree most of the times it's not true. But to call someone a kofer for saying that is ludicrous. And to talk down to people and spew hateful rhetoric is inappropriate where I come from

Yup.
I think many Jews would probably have larger families if they didn't have tuition worries, etc.  So to throw around kofer is quite the accusation against a large swath of frum jews.

[whYME]

See my example from three words after you quoted me.

What does that example show? nothing.
There are plenty of rich people with many kids and poor people with no kids.

To say that the reason a person is poor is because he has many kids, not because that's what Hashem "decreed" for him does show a certain lack of emunah and bitachon. I wouldn't go so far as to call it kefirah though...

[Ergel]

What does that example show? nothing.
There are plenty of rich people with many kids and poor people with no kids.

To say that the reason a person is poor is because he has many kids, not because that's what Hashem "decreed" for him does show a certain lack of emunah and bitachon. I wouldn't go so far as to call it kefirah though...

I think in said theoretical situation it would be irresponsible to have more children and that would adversely effect one's parnasah. Again, generally I agree with you. But to say everything is purely gzeiras haboreh I think goes against chovos halevavos. Man's actions have an effect
And to call it kefirah and yell at people and put on a holier than thou persona to me is gross

[whYME]

And to call it kefirah and yell at people and put on a holier than thou persona to me is gross

Agreed, I said from the beginning that I don't agree with the strong language.

But to say everything is purely gzeiras haboreh I think goes against chovos halevavos. Man's actions have an effect

Like I said upthread:

You can't totally quit your job and expect money to fall from heaven, (i.e. you need to make a keli,) but it's important to realize that ultimately it's Hashem who determines how much you'll make.

Of course you need to do your hishtadlus, but sometimes his plans are different than ours and he usually wins in those cases

[whYME]

I think in said theoretical situation it would be irresponsible to have more children and that would adversely effect one's parnasah.

Unless you believe additional children brings you additional brochos...

(Incidentally, in that case I would agree with the irresponsible part, but not necessarily because "that would adversely effect one's parnasah")

Anywho, it's time for me to call it a night...

[Ergel]

Agreed, I said from the beginning that I don't agree with the strong language.
Like I said upthread:Of course you need to do your hishtadlus, but sometimes his plans are different than ours and he usually wins in those cases

So then we agree. Not sure why we're arguing. I guess it's in the airwaves tonight

[Chaikel]

Saying that you're not going to have kids due to financial constraints means you don't believe god is the one who provides (he commands us to have kids regardless of financial situation) which makes you a kofer. It's pretty black and white. Not sure what I'm missing. We are commanded to have kids regardless of financial situation, AFAIK the is no "though shall buy a Lexus" or "though shalt not fly economy"

[Ergel]

1. That is called a chisaron in emunah, not kefirah (if a person works eighty hour weeks because he this that how much he works matters,  is he a kofer?
2. After a person discharges his biblical obligation of a boy and a girl, he now has a chiyuv midivrei sofrim of la'erev al tenach yadecha. If he is in a situation where it becomes irresponsible to have more children,  as determined by a rav (see my example above) I do believe he can adversely effect his economic situation by having more children.  Does that make me a kofer?
3. It used to take a lot to be a kofer. Apparently nowadays every Tom,  Dick and Harry is one.chazal have say if someone call someone else a rasha he can yored imo lchayav-all the more so if you call him a kofer. I would tread carefully

[Chaikel]

1. That is called a chisaron in emunah, not kefirah (if a person works eighty hour weeks because he this that how much he works matters,  is he a kofer?
2. After a person discharges his biblical obligation of a boy and a girl, he now has a chiyuv midivrei sofrim of la'erev al tenach yadecha. If he is in a situation where it becomes irresponsible to have more children,  as determined by a rav (see my example above) I do believe he can adversely effect his economic situation by having more children.  Does that make me a kofer?
3. It used to take a lot to be a kofer. Apparently nowadays every Tom,  Dick and Harry is one.chazal have say if someone call someone else a rasha he can yored imo lchayav-all the more so if you call him a kofer. I would tread carefully

1. One who is being oiver tachlis habriya because of lack of emuna, is different than a ba'al dimyon
2. No competent rov will give a heter for financial reasons. If finances are causing issues due to chisaron emuna, that is an entirely different ballbark.
3. That is referring to someone calling a specific person a name. Are you saying anytime chazal or any meforosh says that "if someone does/says xyz he's a kofer", then that pirush is a kofer?

[yehuda S]

Is it a chesoron in emunah to sign up for food stamps or only to get a job? 

[yehuda S]

IMECO (In my extremely controversial opinion) Hashem has already given us extreme wealth. This comes in the form of living in the richest country in history with record low levels of anti semitism and endless opportunity to achieve financial success. The final step which is going out to get that success is up to us.

If your emuna consists of believing that Hashem is going to shovel hundred dollar bills into your pocket then that is very foolish.

If Hashem placed some people in front of a gold mine and stuffed a pickax in their hand they would  refuse to dig thinking that it would be a lack of faith.

America is a gold mine.

Start digging.

P.S. The people Hashem really  made poor are people with disabilities and disease, etc.)

[Achas Veachas]

No one says you don't have to work (well no one with his head on straight).
The Pasuk says וברכך ה' אלוקיך בכל אשר תעשה. That teaches us 2 things. a) there has a to be a תעשה, we have to do something for the Brachah to come down through and b) the source of the Brachah is not what WE do, rather it's the Brachah of Hashem working through our Keli.

[churnbabychurn]

IMECO (In my extremely controversial opinion) Hashem has already given us extreme wealth. This comes in the form of living in the richest country in history with record low levels of anti semitism and endless opportunity to achieve financial success. The final step which is going out to get that success is up to us.

If your emuna consists of believing that Hashem is going to shovel hundred dollar bills into your pocket then that is very foolish.

If Hashem placed some people in front of a gold mine and stuffed a pickax in their hand they would  refuse to dig thinking that it would be a lack of faith.

America is a gold mine.

Start digging.

P.S. The people Hashem really  made poor are people with disabilities and disease, etc.)

Wake up, many people are digging all day and only get dirt.

[yehuda S]

Wake up, many people are digging all day and only get dirt.

What's your miles/point total for this year?

Maybe they are digging in the wrong place.

[sky121]

What's your miles/point total for this year?

Maybe they are digging in the wrong place.

There are plenty of people who work like a dog their whole lives and still don't have enough to support their families.

Miles and Points? Lets say 20k. For some that may cover 2 of their kids tuition.

It sounds like a pretty naive statement.