Vaccine Discussion Master Thread

[aygart]

Another example why intested and non reliable statistics are to be taken with a grain of salt.

http://boingboing.net/2013/01/01/correlation-between-autism-dia.html

http://www.fastcodesign.com/3030529/infographic-of-the-day/hilarious-graphs-prove-that-correlation-isnt-causation

[churnbabychurn]

Is that a one way street, to disprove adverse reaction claims, but not to disprove correlated supposed benefits ? 

Anyone read the Ami Mag, Lakewood MD  had to defend his position by claiming Peach mag references are fabricated

Will he end up issuing an appolgy/retraction, or will he prefer being summoned to bais din?

Beis din? !

Didn't read the Ami but the Torah gives explicit permission to a DOCTOR to heal and obviously express his much needed, lifesaving medical advice and recommendations. Especially when faced with mad cults who are desperate to spread their influence to legitimize themselves.

What would your tayna in Beis din be?

[yidelle]

Is that a one way street, to disprove adverse reaction claims, but not to disprove correlated supposed benefits ? 

Anyone read the Ami Mag, Lakewood MD  had to defend his position by claiming Peach mag references are fabricated

Will he end up issuing an appolgy/retraction, or will he prefer being summoned to bais din?

What are you talking about? Dr. Shanik, a respected community doctor for years in the Lakewood community does not agree with the Peach magazine. He is a medical doctor that has been around the block more than once and he states specific statistics on how the preventable diseases are coming back and are directly related to communities who have high numbers of the "Anti Vaccine" cult. And you will summons him to Baits Din? For what? For doing his job and saving lives?

[doodle]

mods we aready deleted that troll . WHY DO WE NEED A RE INFESTATION ?

[aygart]

Is that a one way street, to disprove adverse reaction claims, but not to disprove correlated supposed benefits ? 

Anyone read the Ami Mag, Lakewood MD  had to defend his position by claiming Peach mag references are fabricated

Will he end up issuing an appolgy/retraction, or will he prefer being summoned to bais din?

They are fabricated. At the beginning there are headlines of various supposed issues from vaccines with a page to look at. IIRC, every single one of them was not a part of any referenced study. Half or more of the referenced are arvach arva tzurich in that the referenced article or book is in itself anti vaccine propaganda. I would love to see that din Torah....

[yidelle]

Nothing, Not Even Hard Facts, Can Make Anti-Vaxxers Change Their Minds

Researchers found a backlash effect when presented with scientific evidence that vaccines don't cause autism

In other words, it is CULT!

http://healthland.time.com/2014/03/04/nothing-not-even-hard-facts-can-make-anti-vaxxers-change-their-minds/

[Achas Veachas]

Nothing, Not Even Hard Facts, Can Make Anti-Vaxxers Change Their Minds

Researchers found a backlash effect when presented with scientific evidence that vaccines don't cause autism

In other words, it is CULT!

http://healthland.time.com/2014/03/04/nothing-not-even-hard-facts-can-make-anti-vaxxers-change-their-minds/

True, that's why I liked the 'tone' of your Kuntres which at first glance sounds like, and uses a lot of the anti vax rhetoric ("The truth about immunizations' 'hear out the 'other side'' etc.)...

[churnbabychurn]

Take e-z my friends

We can respectfully disagree, I have no problem with you claiming the earth is flat. However a license to practice medicine, just like a drivers license can be used to save lives or  irresponsibly the opposite way. you can do you home work & agree or disagree, freedom of speech does not include openly lying about something you don't like even if you you are an MD, he can write all he wants about his so called statistics who cares, i will not worship an MD & he has no right to lie about reference to medical articles that disagree

Comparing a license to practice medicine, 7 years of study (+in Dr Shaniks case, 40+ years of experience with literally hundreds of thousands of patient visits) with the license to drive a car is just stupid and pathetic. (Sorry, dont have a better way to refute this argument of yours.)

[Achas Veachas]

Comparing a license to practice medicine, 7 years of study (+in Dr Shaniks case, 40+ years of experience with literally hundreds of thousands of patient visits) with the license to drive a car is just stupid and pathetic. (Sorry, dont have a better way to refute this argument of yours.)

That plus claiming that people with no training whatsoever are somehow better qualified and worshiping them.

To build on your analogy I guess I would say that's like saying being that people with drivers licenses drive irresponsibly sometimes therefore I'll only let my 9 year old drive me around...

[Yehuda57]

That plus claiming that people with no training whatsoever are somehow better qualified and worshiping them.

To build on your analogy I guess I would say that's like saying being that people with drivers licenses drive irresponsibly sometimes therefore I'll only let my 9 year old drive me around...

Do you know that more than 98%* of traffic accidents and fatalities are caused by drivers WITH licenses!?!?!

STOP MURDERING OUR CHILDREN. DO NOT GET A DRIVER'S LICENSE.

*Disclaimer: I made up this statistic.

[jj1000]

Do you know that more than 98%* of traffic accidents and fatalities are caused by drivers WITH licenses!?!?!

STOP MURDERING OUR CHILDREN. DO NOT GET A DRIVER'S LICENSE.

*Disclaimer: I made up this statistic.

Why are you making a disclaimer? That ruins the whole comparison.

[Achas Veachas]

Why are you making a disclaimer? That ruins the whole comparison.

The real number can't be too far off...

In fact it probably makes sense to say that drivers without a license are safer drivers just because they don't want to get caught...

[yidelle]

Take e-z my friends

We can respectfully disagree, I have no problem with you claiming the earth is flat, or hand washing/hygiene will not save lives. However a license to practice medicine, just like a drivers license can be used to save lives or  irresponsibly the opposite way. you can do you home work & agree or disagree, freedom of speech does not include openly lying about something you don't like even if you you are an MD, he can write all he wants about his so called statistics who cares, i will not worship an MD & he has no right to lie about reference to medical articles that disagree

this not the 1st time medical establishment denies truth at the expense of human lives  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

Yes. We can respectfully disagree if the earth is flat. I don’t give a dam if it is round of flat. I think it is round and if my neighbor thinks it is flat it won’t kill me. But you can’t respectfully disagree that vaccines don't save lives. You can’t respectfully disagree that these diseases were killers as recently as the 1950’s and 1960’s. You can’t respectfully disagree that we have outbreaks now. We can respectfully agree that this is a cult movement and the normal people are scared by a bunch of nuts and irresponsible people.

And if you want to quote from Wikipedia, who usually have a very balanced approach, I will also take the liberty to quote from them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversies

Make sure to read about how Dr. Wakefield falsified records to come to a pre-determined conclusion that vaccines causes autism. Make sure to read about the Financial motives the anti vaccine group has.

And... Why do the anti vaccine baby killers waco's never talk about babies dying from wooping cough and other preventable diseases? The medical field does talk about side effects and the risk of taking vaccines. They talk about the risk of not taking it. They talk about how it does not work for everyone and their only hope is a responsible community so they have herd immunity.

What ever happened to ואהבת לרעך כמו and לא תעמוד על דם רעיך?

[skyguy918]

exactly my question to you reb yidele lo sa'mod al dumb rei'acho

I'm not sure whether to laugh or to cry.

[aygart]

exactly my question to you reb yidele lo sa'mod al dumb rei'acho

when you can't answer in substance you resort to name calling:-\

[Achas Veachas]

Can we just all decide NOT to feed this troll?

[DH Data Recovery]

I was actually really hoping now that we have an expert on each side of this discussion we can really see both sides. So far I got לא תעמוד על דם רעיך on one side and "al dumb raecho" as the reply?

[Achas Veachas]

I was actually really hoping now that we have an expert on each side of this discussion we can really see both sides. So far I got לא תעמוד על דם רעיך on one side and "al dumb raecho" as the reply?

Think Twice an expert? You gotta be kidding me! We have had very smart rational people on all sides of the discussion...

[DH Data Recovery]

He is pretty much the one championing the anti-vaccine stance in this thread so I believe he knows all the reasons not to vaccinate

[aygart]

Can you explain to us what you feel is Dr Shanik's motive to "lie" (as you claim) about vaccines?