Topic Wiki

The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
115 (37.8%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
184 (60.5%)

Total Members Voted: 303

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 242095 times)

Offline Lamdan

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #165 on: January 16, 2013, 12:26:38 AM »
Myths.
You do seem to buy into too many of them ;)
yeh but this time my arm is killing  ;D
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Offline Dan

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #166 on: January 16, 2013, 12:27:29 AM »
yeh but this time my arm is killing  ;D
BTDT.
When you switch to mist you'll never look back.
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Offline Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #167 on: January 16, 2013, 01:56:24 AM »
I had a better one, but for now: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2012/11/03/kids-flumist-vaccine/1677863/
the difference is that the shot is a dead virus and the spray is a live virus. dead apparently is better for adults.
Hopefully the other source is at least readable and not for laughs...
Before reading on, be aware that I am not an expert in any way, so either I'm really tired or this is one of the most ridiculous thing (ever?) written with a whole bunch of holes in it...
Parts from article in "quotes" and the dash should introduce my comment

"There's mounting evidence that the FluMist nasal spray works much better in kids than an injection, because a person's immune system changes as they age."
-There may be, but I didn't see any in article

"When it comes to flu vaccines, most kids clearly and loudly prefer the nasal spray over the traditional shot in the arm. As it turns out, those instincts are right on the nose."
-And I'll assume that all adults love being stabbed instead

"With mounting evidence that the FluMist nasal spray works much better in kids than an injection, flu experts are considering whether the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention should actually steer young children toward the less painful alternative."
-If you just said they don't like being stabbed, why the need to steer?

"The deliberations reflect a growing sense among infectious disease experts that people of different ages may get better protection from different types of vaccines, says Gregory Poland, a professor at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota and an adviser to the CDC."
-without being a statistician I'd say that adults 18-50 are included in different ages

"The CDC currently issues only general recommendations for the flu. The agency encourages everyone over age 6 months to get an annual flu vaccine, but doesn't specify which kind. An influenza work group, part of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, is considering whether the CDC should begin tailoring those recommendations, by expressing a preference for FluMist in healthy kids ages 2 to 8, says Poland, a group member."
-Out of two options, can we seriously just let the people pick? What's next the CDC coming to my house and stabbing me and misting my kids while we're sleeping, cause we don't have a choice anyways.

"We've treated all flu vaccines the same, but they are not," says Arnold Monto, a professor at the University of Michigan School of Public Health. "We're moving away from a one-size-fits-all flu vaccine."
-Just threw up in my mouth...

"Canada and the United Kingdom already express a preference for nasal spray vaccines for children.
A person's immune system changes as they age, says Robert Belshe, director of the vaccine center at St. Louis University.
In a study of children published in The New England Journal of Medicine, Belshe found kids who got FluMist were half as likely to get influenza than those given an injection."
-(In 2010) St. Louis doctors get $2.5 million from Pfizer, Lilly, Glaxo, Merck
Dr. Robert Belshe traveled throughout rural Missouri and Illinois last year to discuss flu vaccines during the H1N1 scare. Drug companies Merck & Co. Inc. and GlaxoSmithKline helped pick up Ö
-Well I personally will ignore anything with his name on it as he's paid by vaccine companies

"FluMist offered broader protection than the shot, even when the strain of flu virus in circulation wasn't a good match to the strain used in the vaccine, his study found."
-Wonder how that works, I think this is based on theory of evolution, and now FluMist can evolve to protect me from ALL FLU's!!

"In that study, about 5% of children vaccinated with FluMist came down with influenza, compared with 10% of those given an injection."
-This is when I started ROFLing, I hope this is a typo or something, what does this mean that this study proved that someone who gets the flu vax has a higher chance to get flu that a Savage/Mercola following quack? It's gotta be the most poshut thing ever that a vaccine should prevent something like 99.99% - At least! I would say they prob meant .005% and .01% or some smaller number. This isn't even a point of argument among the two sides.

"Not all kids can get FluMist, Belshe says. While injectable vaccines are currently approved for those over 6 months old, FluMist isn't recommended for kids with asthma or babies under age 2, because of a slightly increased risk of wheezing.
Young children seem to respond better than older kids and adults to FluMist, which uses a live, but weakened virus that can't cause influenza, Belshe says."
Blah blah $$$$, I wonder if he makes more or less than $5000 per word... If 5% of kids get the flu, how did his study show that this weak virus can't cause influenza. Apparently, now the study includes a third group, older kids, and they are doomed to stabbing, oh well.

"FluMist doesn't cause the flu, however, because the viruses are specially engineered to grow only at the relatively cool temperatures of the nose. The viruses in FluMist can't reproduce in the lungs, which are a degree or two warmer, says Chris Ambrose, vice president for medical and scientific affairs at MedImmune, which makes FluMist."
-I'd like to quote something else he said at this point. The increase in hospitalizations in children <2 years was driven by children 6Ė11 months of age (LAIV, 6∑1%; TIV, 2∑6%; P=0∑002) and most of the hospitalizations occurred >42 days after the last dose, were not temporally clustered, and were accounted for by events commonly expected in this population (e.g., respiratory tract and gastrointestinal tract infections). A biological rationale for this increase in late-occurring hospitalizations cannot be readily explained.
-Btw Laiv is live virus and tiv is the shot.

"Since young kids haven't had much exposure to the flu, their immune systems respond vigorously to live viruses, Belshe says. The CDC says FluMist can reduce flu infections by up to 92%."
-Up to 92% of statistics are made up (not sure, but I think I read that in these forums). What is up to?
At this point, I'll theorize that vitamin D3 can reduce flu up to 93% so ha! (can I be wrong with up to?)

"Young adults ages 18 to 49 seem to respond better to the injection, which contains a dead virus that also can't cause influenza, Monto says."
-I'm not making this up. Here's Monto! "We have a good vaccine but not a great vaccine," Dr. Arnold Monto of the University of Michigan, a co-author of the vaccine-effectiveness study, said in an interview. "Every year we see vaccine failures." http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/01/12/us-scrambles-for-flu-shots-as-death-toll-continues-to-rise/
-If the better one, the injection, is good but not great, what does that make the other one?
-I thought that the live virus can't cause the flu either, just look a few lines up. I hope we all have better attention spans than this!

"Adults over 65 have weaker immune systems and don't respond well to any flu vaccine, even though they are among the most vulnerable to complications of influenza, Belshe says."
-Well that sucks, we're scared of flu, it's dangerous so let's vaccinate everyone. Oh wait, most of the danger is with ppl over 65 and we can't help them. How does this guy even earn his paycheck?

"The Food and Drug Administration has approved a new, high-dose flu shot for seniors that seems a bit better at stimulating the immune system. But definitive studies to show if the vaccine substantially reduces flu infections are still ongoing, Belshe says."
-So instead we'll just give them a higher dose, so they'll just get the flu from the shot!

"While tailoring flu recommendations by age and vaccine type may make sense scientifically, Monto notes there could be practical problems in putting such detailed advice into place."
-A or B, A or B, which one, too hard to decide, this advice would need too much detail, we're only doctors you know...

"Doctors may find it more cumbersome to stock several kinds of flu vaccines, Monto says."
-How can we possible stock BOTH of them?

"Some doctors, nurses and pharmacists are misinformed about FluMist's safety, says Rachel Vreeman, co-author of Don't Swallow Your Gum!: Myths, Half-Truths, and Outright Lies About Your Body and Health.
Some doctors and pharmacists refuse to stock FluMist, and even caution patients against it, Vreeman says.
"The concerns over FluMist fall in the category of medical myths that even doctors believe," Vreeman says.
Staying up to date on vaccine safety "requires people to pay attention, and a lot of them don't, because they're busy with everything else.""
-Hmmm, until now I was neutral when it came to Mist, due to lack of info. Why would article promoting the Mist tell me that even the MD's out there don't trust this FluMist yet? I didn't google this myself it's included in the USAtoday article, how convenient?

"FluMist has been tested in more than 160,000 people says, Ambrose says."
-How many of them were kids, I thought that we were discussing children?

"In order for the viruses in FluMist to actually cause the flu, they would have to undergo four different genetic mutations, according to Poland's 2008 paper in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings."
-Which apparently happens 5% of the time (See above)

"The most common side effects of FluMist are an increased risk of sniffles or congestion, caused by the virus reproducing in the nose, Poland writes. That reproduction helps to stimulate the immune system to make antibodies against the virus."
-Two rounds of sniffles and congestion coming up! (did anyone know the researchers say you really need two of these?)

"And while kids who sneeze out the FluMist viruses could theoretically infect others around them, this has only been documented once, Poland writes. Even then, the infected person didn't get the flu."
-The ppl who make the vaccine admit that It is possible for individuals vaccinated with FluMist to spread the virus to others for up to 21 days after vaccination. For this reason it is recommended that those vaccinated with FluMist avoid close contact with individuals with weak immune systems during that time. see FluMist package insert.

"Relatively few pharmacies, whose vaccine clinics tend to focus on older adults, stock FluMist. In a statement, Walgreens said the number of Walgreens customers who request FluMist is "a very small, single-digit percentage.""
-Apparently all Walgreens employees document every request for a FluMist vaccine, why is this relevant anyways, who cares?

"Recent studies showing its effectiveness, however, have won over many pediatricians, Ambrose says. About 90% of pediatricians now offer it. Among vaccinated children ages 2 to 17, about 40% receive FluMist."
-The other 60% prefer to be stabbed!

"In considering whether to steer patients toward FluMist, the CDC will consider not just its safety and effectiveness, but costs, whether MedImmune could produce an adequate supply and whether it's practical to make the change, says pediatrician Joseph Bocchini of Shreveport, La., a member of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices.
Experts will have to consider new issues, as well, including improvements to existing vaccines, Bocchini says. FluMist will be available next year in a form that protects against four viral strains, instead of the standard three. Bocchini expects that flu shots may also include four viral strains next year, as well."
-I thought the vaccine was up to 92% effective, I guess we should go for up to 93% to be even with vitamin D3!

"The committee hasn't yet scheduled a vote on the issue, Bocchini says, and likely won't make a decision for several months."
-In the meantime they will spend and vacation and sit on planes next to others who got a "free flight" from mileage!

-So that's the article, which was supposed to prove that the mist was better for kids and the shot was better for adults under 65, said a whole bunch of ridiculous stuff, and a little bit of useful info, but didn't prove their point.

Offline thaber

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #168 on: January 16, 2013, 02:06:24 AM »
I have a feeling that Barryg won't change his mind no matter what he reads  ::)
By the vaccines are never 99.99% some are only 70%- 80%, but they rely on the herd protection.

Offline HelpMe

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #169 on: January 16, 2013, 02:14:50 AM »
The shot has been around longer than the spray. Does this mean one is safer than the other, no. It does give more data on one than the other. I have not seen one reliable report that says the spray is more effective than the shot. The shot can be used on a larger percentage of the population than the spray. The shot is more readily available than the spray also. If you are such wimps that you canít take a shot in the arm then go for the spray.  :P
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Offline Dan

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #170 on: January 16, 2013, 02:37:07 AM »
If you are such wimps that you canít take a shot in the arm then go for the spray.
Aye Aye, Captain!
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Offline HelpMe

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #171 on: January 16, 2013, 07:35:53 AM »
Be careful with that tone or you will spend the night in the brig!  :D
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Offline Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #172 on: January 16, 2013, 09:39:04 AM »
I have a feeling that Barryg won't change his mind no matter what he reads  ::)
By the vaccines are never 99.99% some are only 70%- 80%, but they rely on the herd protection.
Not true at all. The opposite, very open minded here. To be honest, that's the thing I like most about the forums here, I'm here to learn. In order for the system to work, though, ppl have to share if they know something that others may not be aware of.
The vaccine being 80% effective and 5%, 10% of ppl that were vaccinated still getting the flu are two different numbers. I wonder what percentage of the overall population gets the flu (I haven't had it in almost 20 years, if I had once in my life that's like a 3% rate of getting the flu/ vs. not getting). Why would getting vaccinated put me at 5% or 10%, it should now be lower than 3%.
80% effective would mean, for example, that if 5 people with the flu shared germs with me, I'd be protected from 4 and therefore since most ppl don't share germs with 5 ppl that have flu wouldn't get it. In other words 80% effective would take me from 3% to well under 1%...

Offline HelpMe

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #173 on: January 16, 2013, 09:50:01 AM »
Not true at all. The opposite, very open minded here. To be honest, that's the thing I like most about the forums here, I'm here to learn. In order for the system to work, though, ppl have to share if they know something that others may not be aware of.
The vaccine being 80% effective and 5%, 10% of ppl that were vaccinated still getting the flu are two different numbers. I wonder what percentage of the overall population gets the flu (I haven't had it in almost 20 years, if I had once in my life that's like a 3% rate of getting the flu/ vs. not getting). Why would getting vaccinated put me at 5% or 10%, it should now be lower than 3%.
80% effective would mean, for example, that if 5 people with the flu shared germs with me, I'd be protected from 4 and therefore since most ppl don't share germs with 5 ppl that have flu wouldn't get it. In other words 80% effective would take me from 3% to well under 1%...
You need to take Math 101.
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Offline Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #174 on: January 16, 2013, 10:02:57 AM »
You need to take Math 101.
I'll admit that I need more sleep overall, but which part are you referring to?

Offline henche

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #175 on: January 16, 2013, 10:21:47 AM »
I read somewhere that it is 62% effective, but I didn't read the study to see what the 62% was of.

I assume it means that if you have 400 people and usually 100 of them would get the flu, but with the shot only 38 of them do. So 62% of the cases that would have happened are prevented.

At least, I hope that is what it means, because otherwise it is a meaningless statistic.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #176 on: January 16, 2013, 11:23:55 AM »
@ barryg, from reading your cherry picked quotes from that article, it seems that it leaves something to be desired. However there are some very good points in there that you simply denigrate bec your mind is already made up.

Offline Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #177 on: January 16, 2013, 04:20:11 PM »
@ YankyDoodle
Which points?
I tried not to cherry pick, that's the whole artice.

I think the press has gone mad. Just wondering if anyone else around here appreciates when someone writes an article like that... I think the weatherman does more to earn a paycheck...

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #178 on: January 16, 2013, 04:41:54 PM »
@ YankyDoodle
Which points?
I tried not to cherry pick, that's the whole artice.

I think the press has gone mad. Just wondering if anyone else around here appreciates when someone writes an article like that... I think the weatherman does more to earn a paycheck...

"FluMist offered broader protection than the shot, even when the strain of flu virus in circulation wasn't a good match to the strain used in the vaccine, his study found."
-Wonder how that works, I think this is based on theory of evolution, and now FluMist can evolve to protect me from ALL FLU's!!
Is that really what you took away from that statement? Seemed pretty straightforward and noteworthy to me

"The CDC currently issues only general recommendations for the flu. The agency encourages everyone over age 6 months to get an annual flu vaccine, but doesn't specify which kind. An influenza work group, part of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, is considering whether the CDC should begin tailoring those recommendations, by expressing a preference for FluMist in healthy kids ages 2 to 8, says Poland, a group member."
-Out of two options, can we seriously just let the people pick? What's next the CDC coming to my house and stabbing me and misting my kids while we're sleeping, cause we don't have a choice anyways.

It doesn't even come close to implying that they won't let ppl choose which they like. It just says that based on the data about which is more effective for that age group, the CDC should recommend that FluMist be given to children ages 2-8. Similar to any medical recommendation... such as the recommendation to see a PCP for a yearly checkup and that a pregnant woman should see her OB every so often. Nothing too sinister about those huh?

"We've treated all flu vaccines the same, but they are not," says Arnold Monto, a professor at the University of Michigan School of Public Health. "We're moving away from a one-size-fits-all flu vaccine."
-Just threw up in my mouth...

This is actually the future of medicine and something that people like you should be excited about.

These are just a few examples. I'm not completely defending the article, but it has a lot more to offer than you give it credit for.

Offline Sammy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #179 on: January 16, 2013, 04:46:15 PM »
Didn't get the shot but just recovered from the flu.... IT was a disaster