Vaccine Discussion Master Thread

[avromie7]

Who says they do ? Why r u asking me ?Why don't you ask them?

They don't currently drink it but they used to, I don't know why R' Dovid stopped but R' Reuven stopped when R' Moshe passed away because R' Moshe said baal nefesh yachmir and he felt that when R' Moshe left the world the madreiga of baal nefesh went down and he then was a baal nefesh.

I'm not asking you it's a rhetorical question disproving your statement

[avromie7]

Please explain

which part

[grodnoking]

They don't currently drink it but they used to, I don't know why R' Dovid stopped but R' Reuven stopped when R' Moshe passed away because R' Moshe said baal nefesh yachmir and he felt that when R' Moshe left the world the madreiga of baal nefesh went down and he then was a baal nefesh.

I'm not asking you it's a rhetorical question disproving your statement

I know that r' dovid told his downstairs neighbors that they have no obligation at all to stop eating cholov stam.

[avromie7]

I know that r' dovid told his downstairs neighbors that they have no obligation at all to stop eating cholov stam.

I know both of their children eat cholov stam

[Barryg]

Where did you get that from? I see they say that Escobar was vaccinated recently, but I haven't seen the suggestion that the other 2 contracted it because of him. At least one article suggests a different theory:

I got the idea from ESPN
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/13559868/kelvin-herrera-alex-rios-kansas-city-royals-diagnosed-chickenpox

Yost said shortstop Alcides Escobar was vaccinated just recently as part of requirements for citizenship, though it's unclear whether that may have introduced the virus to the clubhouse.

I get the sense that you think this story might in some way show that you shouldn't vaccinate for chickenpox. Yet if the 2 players who have contracted chickenpox had been vaccinated, there'd be no story at all - no chicken pox. And it's likely that if Escobar hadn't vaccinated, he'd be out with chickenpox too.

Maybe if Escobar wasn't vaccinated there'd be no story at all... And we'll probably never know...

[Barryg]

Ok i give up, everyone should take every vaccine available  at once no spacing out

But instead of 1 hour after birth , 1 hour after death

There may be some paralysis blindness or  deafness as result, but they can live with that

Was it the Freddie Cholov Stam thing that got to you?

[skyguy918]

I got the idea from ESPN
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/13559868/kelvin-herrera-alex-rios-kansas-city-royals-diagnosed-chickenpox

Yost said shortstop Alcides Escobar was vaccinated just recently as part of requirements for citizenship, though it's unclear whether that may have introduced the virus to the clubhouse.Maybe if Escobar wasn't vaccinated there'd be no story at all... And we'll probably never know...

You've got to be kidding me. Ned Yost is your source? I read that, but I said to myself, there's no way that's what Barry was referring to. C'mon, you're better than that.

Either way, the 'team' - which includes medical staff, not just a former player turned manager - knows about Escobar and isn't advancing that theory. See the article I quoted.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

A possibility is that part of is it due to children with asthma not having joined sports teams until recently. I remember there being children in my class who had asthma but they did not really play sports.

On both of these things I have not found stats that go back many years. The available stats show some growth in these areas but not by that much. I would have to agree with this:
People simply aren't ashamed of these things the way they used to be. The stigma around these things has been lifted.

If that is the best we got then the anti-vax nuts win this round.

[Barryg]

If that is the best we got then the anti-vax nuts win this round.

And what about the KC Royals round? Espn and the manager vs. article from KansasCity.com and the team.

[jj1000]

Ok i give up, everyone should take every vaccine available  at once no spacing out

But instead of 1 hour after birth , 1 hour after death

There may be some paralysis blindness or  deafness as result, but they can live with that

This last point was already answered, but you like to ignore direct answers.

Let me give an example of what you are proposing:

America is attacked. We can either go to war and defend our country or allow the invading armies to have free reign.

So we go to war and some soldiers fighting the war die. So you are saying because some people died from war the war is a terrible thing and kills people. Meanwhile if we didn't go to war the other armies would have invaded and killed far far more people.

Due to what is being prevented and the tiny amount of casualties going to war causes vs being invaded any logical person would say going to war makes sense to do. But if you are sitting in a cave and all you look at is the shadows of soldier being killed you say war is the devil. And your choice of no war then leads to invading armies going through towns and slaughtering men, women, and children.

But hey not everyone is logical I guess.

If that is the best we got then the anti-vax nuts win this round.

Are you serious? Their argument was as good as my GMO argument, or my milk argument. More kids are drinking milk so more asthma. What are you talking about?

And how does that explain the rise of asthma most drastically in minoritis? Maybe healthcare has been getting better in the US, especially since Obama was in office and therefore more people are seeing pediatricians and being diagnosed? Or maybe it's milk either way it in no way has any proof to vaccines.

fda dtap to blame for rise in whooping caugh

http://www.fda.gov/newsevents/newsroom/pressannouncements/ucm376937.htm

Wow.

You just linked to an article that said morons that don't vaccinate are causing an increase of whopping cough. And somehow you totally misread it.

It is embarrassing when meeting take place talking about whopping cough and frum Jews in NY come up as the culprits. The Dr's think they are nuts.

[aygart]

BUSTED

CDC says U.S. Asthma Rates Continue to Rise  http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2011/p0503_vitalsigns.html

r u going to blame better diognosis?

Is there a rise in vaccination rates recently to blame that on? I can't say that I did the research, in fact if you look through what I wrote in this thread it was entirely based upon references brought by you and your ilk which invariably have shown the value and low risks of vaccinating and how you have misinterpreted the data.

It may be better diagnosis it may be something else and it may even be vaccines but you have not shown the link. One thing is certain and that is that better diagnosis exists.

If that is the best we got then the anti-vax nuts win this round.

over the time span between the two data points you are using was there a corresponding rise in vaccinations? To simply say there are more cases of asthma now than at some random point in time does not show a connection to anything until you have data to connect them.

How about this data point?
Somalia has a very low vaccination rate, almost invariably below 50%. They also have significantly lower childhood obesity rates than the US. It must be that vaccines cause childhood obesity.

[aygart]

fda dtap to blame for rise in whooping caugh

http://www.fda.gov/newsevents/newsroom/pressannouncements/ucm376937.htm

Where in that article do you see that the vaccine causes whooping cough? It makes no such connection. I think I know the answer to that and the conclusion is ridiculous, but would want to be certain of your reasoning before discussing it.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Are you serious? Their argument was as good as my GMO argument, or my milk argument. More kids are drinking milk so more asthma. What are you talking about?

over the time span between the two data points you are using was there a corresponding rise in vaccinations? To simply say there are more cases of asthma now than at some random point in time does not show a connection to anything until you have data to connect them.

How about this data point?
Somalia has a very low vaccination rate, almost invariably below 50%. They also have significantly lower childhood obesity rates than the US. It must be that vaccines cause childhood obesity.

Never did I say the rise in asthma is caused by vaccinations. If we can't come up with a plausible reason for it the anti-vax nuts will of course say it is because of vaccinations. IMHO saying more kids with asthma are playing soccer is not plausible. When I was growing up I never seen a kid with an inhaler (did they have them back then  ).

[skyguy918]

Never did I say the rise in asthma is caused by vaccinations. If we can't come up with a plausible reason for it the anti-vax nuts will of course say it is because of vaccinations. IMHO saying more kids with asthma are playing soccer is not plausible. When I was growing up I never seen a kid with an inhaler (did they have them back then  ).

When you were growing up and when most of us were growing up are 2 different times

[ChaimMoskowitz]

When you were growing up and when most of us were growing up are 2 different times

...but the same time as my kids. 

[aygart]

Never did I say the rise in asthma is caused by vaccinations. If we can't come up with a plausible reason for it the anti-vax nuts will of course say it is because of vaccinations. IMHO saying more kids with asthma are playing soccer is not plausible. When I was growing up I never seen a kid with an inhaler (did they have them back then  ).

They will blame everything on vaccines. Until they show a connection there is no question to answer.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

They will blame everything on vaccines. Until they show a connection there is no question to answer.

Maybe it would help those on the fence to understand. I read a lot of this thread where I said that is a valid point by the anti-vax group only to see later it was shot down.

[aygart]

I don't have the time or interest in researching the causes of every medical issue which is more now than it was at some random point in time. What I have done throughout this thread was debunk the claims minei ubei (from within themselves). All that takes is a bit of reading comprehension since every single one of the "proofs" brought until now has been based on not reading things properly. Most of them a simple question of "How are you seeing this say what you are ascribing to it?" does the trick. Until then it is like this deduction.

Somalia has a very low vaccination rate, almost invariably below 50%. They also have significantly lower childhood obesity rates than the US. It must be that vaccines cause childhood obesity.

[skyguy918]

Maybe it would help those on the fence to understand. I read a lot of this thread where I said that is a valid point by the anti-vax group only to see later it was shot down.

There are many theories as to the cause higher asthma incidence, but none of them are considered to have been proven by the scientific community. Therefore if someone wants to say, it's vaccines, it's hard to tell them definitively that the real reason is xyz. But you can tell them that there's absolutely no logical reason to think it is in fact vaccines, and you can debunk the 'science' of it if it's ever presented (which, as aygart mentioned, has not even been presented).

[aygart]

BTW, for anyone who wants, here is a link to R Tatz's speech at Chemed in Lakewood
https://www.hightail.com/download/bXBiZGVmcGtrUm01eDhUQw