Topic Wiki

The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
116 (37.5%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
188 (60.8%)

Total Members Voted: 307

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 373578 times)

Offline HelpMe

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #200 on: January 23, 2013, 11:25:22 AM »
I was thinking of writing "vs. quack medicine" didn't want to offend anyone. thanks for doing the dirty work for me :P
"Witch Doctor" is better than "Quack". You dont want PETA after you.  :)
"Elvis Has Left The Building"

Offline az

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #201 on: January 23, 2013, 11:40:21 AM »
Traditional medicine has its ways of assessing risk vs. benefits. Disregarding these studies wold qualify as alternative.
so agen, if after looking into it someone decides to not take them becous of the risks,then hes a quack ???

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #202 on: January 23, 2013, 11:55:05 AM »
so agen, if after looking into it someone decides to not take them because of the risks,then hes a quack ???
Not necessarily. It depends what kind of risks you are worried about. If you don't give vaccines because you are worried about autism for example (a risk that has been debunked many times over) then you qualify for alternative. If you are worried about normal side effects then that is very normal. Every good doctor before giving a treatment will tell you what risks are known to the medical community to be associated with this treatment, what side effects etc. and the decision is up to the patient.

Offline Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #203 on: January 23, 2013, 12:08:45 PM »
You do realize that what you quoted is saying that Mercola is wrong, correct?

My understanding was that recently they discovered a possible link between narcolepsy in Europe and the adjuvant contained in the swine flu vax of 2009. (I didn't bring this article, and I'm sure there will be "studies" done to disprove it soon and label these accusers as quacks.) However, it was brought up on this thread as all american breathed a sigh of relief as they didn't include the junk in the US version.
There was a machlokes in 2009 as Mercola claimed to be part of a group that made a fuss about the adjuvant and was happy when at least that wasn't added in to the shot. One of the ppl who'd call Mercola a quack as she tries to disprove everything he says is Harriet Hall http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/swine-flu-vaccine-fearmongering/ and she said his claims about the adjuvants are false and that they should be put into the flu vax...
Looks to me that she's wrong... How did you see that he was wrong in what I quoted?

Offline Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #204 on: January 23, 2013, 12:13:09 PM »
Not necessarily. It depends what kind of risks you are worried about. If you don't give vaccines because you are worried about autism for example (a risk that has been debunked many times over) then you qualify for alternative. If you are worried about normal side effects then that is very normal. Every good doctor before giving a treatment will tell you what risks are known to the medical community to be associated with this treatment, what side effects etc. and the decision is up to the patient.

What if the main worry is future side effects which weren't tested yet? I don't believe it's likely or easy to test the effects of vaccines, let's say 25-50 years down the line.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #205 on: January 23, 2013, 12:16:48 PM »
What if the main worry is future side effects which weren't tested yet? I don't believe it's likely or easy to test the effects of vaccines, let's say 25-50 years down the line.
Then that usually falls into the general rule of:
Traditional medicine has its ways of assessing risk vs. benefits. Disregarding these studies wold qualify as alternative.


Offline az

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #206 on: January 23, 2013, 12:19:46 PM »
Not necessarily. It depends what kind of risks you are worried about. If you don't give vaccines because you are worried about autism for example (a risk that has been debunked many times over) then you qualify for alternative. If you are worried about normal side effects then that is very normal. Every good doctor before giving a treatment will tell you what risks are known to the medical community to be associated with this treatment, what side effects etc. and the decision is up to the patient.
and thus the discussion (and autism is not the top of the potential complications) 

Offline az

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #207 on: January 23, 2013, 12:22:56 PM »
Then that usually falls into the general rule of:
?? ???

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #208 on: January 23, 2013, 01:38:07 PM »
Not necessarily. It depends what kind of risks you are worried about. If you don't give vaccines because you are worried about autism for example (a risk that has been debunked many times over) then you qualify for alternative. If you are worried about normal side effects then that is very normal. Every good doctor before giving a treatment will tell you what risks are known to the medical community to be associated with this treatment, what side effects etc. and the decision is up to the patient.

First of all, it wouldn't be traditional vs alternative. It would be modern medicine vs alternative/traditional medicine.

And second of all, a doctor is not practicing alternative medicine if they don't give vaccines because they're worried about autism. They may be crazy and/or stupid, but that doesn't make it alternative. More like malpractice or fearmongering maybe.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #209 on: January 23, 2013, 01:51:58 PM »
First of all, it wouldn't be traditional vs alternative. It would be modern medicine vs alternative/traditional medicine.

True (how many mistakes can I make in 1 post? :P )
And second of all, a doctor is not practicing alternative medicine if they don't give vaccines because they're worried about autism. They may be crazy and/or stupid, but that doesn't make it alternative. More like malpractice or fearmongering maybe.
You're right. NOT giving a treatment is not an alternative treatment, but the whole attitude of relying on sources not subject to the scientific method is what I meant.

Offline az

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #210 on: January 23, 2013, 02:15:35 PM »
You're right. NOT giving a treatment is not an alternative treatment, but the whole attitude of relying on sources not subject to the scientific method is what I meant.
one of the major arguments is weather  the vaccines go threw the correct "scientific methods",
has anyone don any research on this,it is a fact that people do have retractions ,miner to deadly, to the vaccines.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #211 on: January 23, 2013, 02:28:00 PM »
@Barryg

I'm not sure what to say... I'm going to assume you didn't read what you quoted from that article, otherwise...

This is a quote from Barryg trying to prove Mercola is correct that Squalene is bad. I will bold parts of the article to reinforce what the article is really proving.


Claim: Joseph Mercola writes about “Squalene: The Swine Flu Vaccine’s Dirty Little Secret.” He has claimed that the vaccine adjuvant squalene is dangerous, that the Gulf War Syndrome was caused by the squalene in anthrax vaccines, that squalene is “good” or “bad depending on how it gets into your body: “Injection is an abnormal route of entry which incites your immune system to attack all the squalene in your body, not just the vaccine adjuvant.” And the only reason they put adjuvants in vaccines is to save money.

 

Fact: Squalene is found naturally in the human body. It is a precursor of cholesterol and other compounds necessary to human health. Squalene antibodies were found in Gulf War veterans; but the rate turned out to be no higher in those who had Gulf War Syndrome than in those who didn’t. Squalene antibodies were found at similar rates in people who had never been exposed to squalene in vaccines. The anthrax vaccine has been ruled out as a possible cause of Gulf War Syndrome. Anyway, it turns out there was no squalene in the anthrax vaccine!

 

American flu vaccines do not contain adjuvants, but maybe they should. Adjuvants enhance the body’s innate immune response to the antigens in vaccines, making vaccines more effective.   And they allow for broader cross-reactivity against viral strains not included in the vaccine.   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17931151?ordinalpos=33&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Mercola says adjuvants are added just to increase profits, but the pharmaceutical and health industries could make far more money treating patients in an epidemic than they could ever make trying to prevent one.
 

There is a large body of data demonstrating the safety of squalene. Flu vaccines containing MF59, a squalene-based adjuvant, have been used in Europe for 10 years, with 22,000,000 doses given; and no serious adverse events have occurred, only mild local reactions.  The vaccine does not raise the incidence or titers of anti-squalene antibodies. The World Health Organization (WHO) considers it safe. http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html


Again, this is a quote from Barryg that he claimed explains that Mercola is correct... Color me dumbfounded

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #212 on: January 23, 2013, 02:35:03 PM »
Again, this is a quote from Barryg that he claimed explains that Mercola is correct... Color me dumbfounded

He was saying (not very clearly) that the article about the link between the swine flu vaccine and narcolepsy was in line with Mercola's position in the argument he proceeded to quote. What he actually quoted was against Mercola's position, but the article he was responding to was for it.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #213 on: January 23, 2013, 02:38:56 PM »
one of the major arguments is weather  the vaccines go threw the correct "scientific methods",
has anyone don any research on this,it is a fact that people do have retractions ,miner to deadly, to the vaccines.

Nope no one at NIH or WHO has ever done any research into vaccines. Yes, all the lay people who claim that vaccines are bad clearly have done a much more thorough "scientific method" of testing than the scientists who are tasked by every government in the world as well as private researchers and independent doctors could have possibly done. In fact my guess is that your poor english writing hasn't hindered your ability to do your own research, which I'm sure you did.

"Weather" is fickle, the scientific method is not. People "don" a hat. You should "retract" your statements, people however have reactions.

so agen, if after looking into it someone decides to not take them becous of the risks,then hes a quack ???
sorry :-[ i ment: is it called alternative medicine if someone dos'nt take a shot becouse of the risks of taking it?
why? is it called Traditional medicine if someone dos'nt take a shot becouse of the risks of taking it?

It is very difficult to hold a serious conversation when you have to guess what they meant to say half of the time.

/end rant

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #214 on: January 23, 2013, 02:46:22 PM »
He was saying (not very clearly) that the article about the link between the swine flu vaccine and narcolepsy was in line with Mercola's position in the argument he proceeded to quote. What he actually quoted was against Mercola's position, but the article he was responding to was for it.

I understand now. Thank you for explaining. It was actually baffling me, trying to figure out what he was getting at.

Offline az

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #215 on: January 23, 2013, 02:49:39 PM »
Nope no one at NIH or WHO has ever done any research into vaccines. Yes, all the lay people who claim that vaccines are bad clearly have done a much more thorough "scientific method" of testing than the scientists who are tasked by every government in the world as well as private researchers and independent doctors could have possibly done. In fact my guess is that your poor english writing hasn't hindered your ability to do your own research, which I'm sure you did.
is that the punchline of your argument?? or dos this make you angry to discuss?

Offline az

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #216 on: January 23, 2013, 02:51:23 PM »
are you an English teacher or do you really have an opinion on the matter

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #217 on: January 23, 2013, 02:53:18 PM »
is that the punchline of your argument??

No. The punchline would be this:

Nope no one at NIH or WHO has ever done any research into vaccines. Yes, all the lay people who claim that vaccines are bad clearly have done a much more thorough "scientific method" of testing than the scientists who are tasked by every government in the world as well as private researchers and independent doctors could have possibly done. 


The amount of testing which must go into any FDA approved medicine (and which alternative medicine doesn't go through) makes claims such as the following sound like quackery
one of the major arguments is weather  the vaccines go threw the correct "scientific methods",
has anyone don any research on this,it is a fact that people do have retractions ,miner to deadly, to the vaccines.

Offline henche

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #218 on: January 23, 2013, 03:04:12 PM »
To those arguing that we should simply trust the scientists, consider this argument: Perhaps vaccines are good for society as a whole, but bad for the individuals.

That is, isn't it possible that on the whole, it is beneficial if lots of people get the vaccine, but, the people who are getting it would actually be personally better off if they were in the minority who did not get it and simply "free-ride" on the fact that most people are getting it. It could make sense mathematically. If so, the benefit of getting vaccines is not only the personal benefit, but also the societal benefit which take the form of a positive externality.

Now, we know there are risks, and there are benefits. The scientists tell us that the benefits outweigh the risks. But, perhaps they mean the societal benefits outweigh the societal risks; do we know that the personal benefits outweigh the personal risks?

Now note that of course the scientists would not want us to know if the personal risks outweigh the personal benefits. Their agenda is the good of society, and would want to maximize the social welfare. So, the fact that the CDC recommends it does not really prove the point.

I personally get vaccines, and will vaccinate my kids. But I'm always open to discussing things.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #219 on: January 23, 2013, 03:05:42 PM »
are you an English teacher or do you really have an opinion on the matter

You are questioning the knowledge of thousands of individuals who have spent more time being educated than you have likely been alive. I am no english teacher but I would be dubious if I ever saw a research article written in the manner that you write.

No. The punchline would be this:

The amount of testing which must go into any FDA approved medicine (and which alternative medicine doesn't go through) makes claims such as the following sound like quackery

Couldn't have said it better.