Vaccine Discussion Master Thread

[churnbabychurn]

I've actually listened to this already. I'm a big fan of Rabbi Tatz.

Lichtenstein couldn't of done a better job illustrating the craziness of the antivaxxer. He had on a bonafide lunatic 9/11 truther.. lol

[a mirrer]

Got it. And I understand the concept.

 But I just have a hard time believing that *all* those parents are sending their kids to school still because they davka want their kid to get measles.     

But maybe I'm wrong. Who knows.

I doubt its because they davka want their kids to get meals, it a lot more likely that they don't want to have their kids home for 3 weeks for (what is in their opinion) no reason

[sky121]

Lichtenstein couldn't of done a better job illustrating the craziness of the antivaxxer. He had on a bonafide lunatic 9/11 truther.. lol

Again, when you say  "antivaxxer" I think of the guy who thinks vaccines are the devil, isn't open to listening, doesn't really want information, thinks people who vaccinate are crazy etc etc.

There's no reason to even talk to that guy. The same way you feel like there is no room for any discussion- that's how he feels.  No point in either of you wasting your breath just yelling at the other side. Just a waste of your words and time. 

You never did answer my yes or no question before.  (At this point you don't have to)

[grodnoking]

This is not just "medicine prescribed by a doctor".
Its overwhelmingly different, it is "medicine  taken by billions" studied  by the entire body of medern science and is definitely lifesaving etc.
To even discuss this with a well educated person like you is ridiculous. You have been influenced by someone or something terrible.

Opioids where and still are a "medicine  taken by billions" and was prescribed by doctors all over. It was the miracle drug. Now look at what happened. Lobbyists can push anything to legality and a good advertising campaign can make everyone think it's the best.

Advil for one is a pretty bad for your body and there are many better drugs that have to be prescribed, yet it still is OTC due to the incredible lobbying done.

[churnbabychurn]

Again, when you say  "antivaxxer" I think of the guy who thinks vaccines are the devil, isn't open to listening, doesn't really want information, thinks people who vaccinate are crazy etc etc.

There's no reason to even talk to that guy. The same way you feel like there is no room for any discussion- that's how he feels.  No point in either of you wasting your breath just yelling at the other side. Just a waste of your words and time. 

You never did answer my yes or no question before.  (At this point you don't have to)

You are equating me and the entire scientific community with fringe lunatics. You are dead wrong.
We are not "extremists". It is just *that* straight forward.
There really are not enough potential side effects to warrant even a discussion, after the entire scientific community and history has already weighed the massive proven benefits vs the extremly minor possible side effects.

When you even say "let's discuss", do "more research", you are extreme and backwards. This is much more than settled

[sky121]

You are equating me and the entire scientific community with fringe lunatics. You are dead wrong.
We are not "extremists". It is just *that* straight forward.
There really are not enough potential side effects to warrant even a discussion, after the entire scientific community and history has already weighed the massive proven benefits vs the extremly minor possible side effects.

When you even say "let's discuss", do "more research", you are extreme and backwards. This is much more than settled

Fringe lunatics? Your words.  I wouldn't call them that.
And I am only talking about the extreme. The ones, like you - NOT open to discussion. Plenty of pro vaccine doctors are willing to have a civil understanding conversation.


But you're saying there isn't even room for that. And I'm not even here to try to explain to you why I think there is.



So you can carry on.

[sky121]

This is embarrassing. So much for being a light unto the nations.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/health/measles-outbreak-nyc-israel/index.html

Where does being anti vaccine in the more ultra religious communities come from? Does anyone know?
Is this like an "old country" being scared of medicines/doctors type of thing?



Also, the fact that there has been a rise if parents in the Jewish communities getting the vaccine all of a sudden leads me to believe that there are people who are either -A. just straight out irresponsible on being on top of things or B. Were potentially on the fence about vaccines and now started getting scared.

Or maybe they were straight up anti vaccine folks who started getting scared? 
It's stam interesting who all those people are.

[zh cohen]

I wish there would be more research into vaccines in general and more work on getting them to be administered in healthier ways.

Is there a specific area that you think has not been sufficiently researched? From my limited knowledge, it seems like there is a ton of research and it all has shown that vaccines are generally safe

[aygart]

Is there a specific area that you think has not been sufficiently researched? From my limited knowledge, it seems like there is a ton of research and it all has shown that vaccines are generally safe

There has been. If you read through this thread you will see some "discussions" I had with some anti-vaxxers in which they were misrepresenting various studies. I am no doctor yet had no difficulty at all refuting every single point they made using simple reading skills. When the pamphlet from the anti-vaxxers was sent out in Lakewood I went through each and every study they quoted and showed people how with basic english skills it is easy to see how each one showed how important it was to vaccinate and how low the risks are and not anything they were representing them to say. There are few things as well researched as vaccines.

[Yehuda57]

I am not against vaccines but at the same time there are legitimate concerns with vaccines.  I wish there would be more research into vaccines in general and more work on getting them to be administered in healthier ways.   Also, the fact that vaccine makers can't be sued doesn't sit well with me and just adds to my concerns and doubts.

That being said after speaking to many people in the more religious communities in Israel I really believe that many people don't get their kids vaccinated out of sheer lack of time, laziness, not keeping on top of things etc. And the rest of them are just straight out anti vaccines.


I don't believe at this point that we shouldn't be giving kids vaccines (though there are a couple I would potentially look into passing on such as the cervical cancer one but that's my personal opinion) but I do believe people should be asking more from their doctors about what's going into their kids bodies and why. There is definitely a lack of transparency and information being provided to parents.


When I take out a drug from the pharmacy I'm told what all the risks are.
When you want the same information on vaccines it's not that easy to obtain.

There are dozens upon dozens of immense studies, with some including *hundreds of thousands of children*. Vaccines are more tested and scrutinized than most other medicines.

The reason frum people are anti-vax (from anecdotal evidence) is the same as why any fad takes hold. Natural, organic, holistic sound much better to parents than needles and chemicals. How many frum babies do you see wearing amber necklaces?

Add to that the Big-Pharma conspiracy aspect (which is very convincing due to it being a very real issue), and you get an epidemic.

[aygart]

Including Dr Eilenberg

[aygart]

http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2018/11/breaking-approximately-50-lakewood-teachers-say-theyre-not-returning-if-unimmunized-children-are-allowed-back-to-school.html

[avromie7]

Also, the fact that there has been a rise if parents in the Jewish communities getting the vaccine all of a sudden leads me to believe that there are people who are either -A. just straight out irresponsible on being on top of things or B. Were potentially on the fence about vaccines and now started getting scared.

Or maybe they were straight up anti vaccine folks who started getting scared? 
It's stam interesting who all those people are.

The reason so many people are getting the vaccine now is because of the outbreak they pushed up the schedule. My 2 yo got his 2nd dose even though normally he wouldn't get it till 4 yo

[sky121]

The reason so many people are getting the vaccine now is because of the outbreak they pushed up the schedule. My 2 yo got his 2nd dose even though normally he wouldn't get it till 4 yo

Ah, got it.

[sky121]

Is there a specific area that you think has not been sufficiently researched? From my limited knowledge, it seems like there is a ton of research and it all has shown that vaccines are generally safe

Lots of things are generally safe.


Right off the bat I'm concerned about what metals in your body do to you long term-  (and not just with vaccines- with all products with various metals-  ) and I'd like more research done as to the best way and ages to administer these vaccines - and ultimately I'd just like transparency in the benefits as well as the side effects on your body when taking vaccines especially at such a young age and the changes it makes to your immune system.
 
         Nothing is without some side effect.  That's not a question. And generally we try to make the best decision about anything that goes into our bodies.  And when you put something into your body you're basically saying the benefits outweigh the risks or are worth the side effects.

That's with anything whether it be an Advil, blood pressure medicine, antibiotics, the flu shot, etc . 


Also and this is just a side note- because you asked-  I do have concerns over some of the vaccines specifically. Like the HPV virus for example.
        I don't know enough. But I feel like I should have the right to ask. That's all.

And I ultimately believe that most people still choose to give most vaccines even if they had more information.



What boggles my mind the most is those that don't even know what they are vaccinating for.  Even if you trust the doctor, don't you ask? Just for knowledge sake.  What's this shot for... etc . I just feel like when your 2 year old is getting over 20 vaccines by that age it seems odd to not even ask.

The same way if you were in the hospital and your kid was getting treatment for something you'd ask. What's this? What's it for? What's it do..etc.   


I really think those on both sides of the extreme have made it hard to have discussions about these things.

But if you're lucky you find a good doctor that is respectful and knowledgeable and answers to the best of their ability.


 

[aygart]

I really think those on both sides of the extreme have made it hard to have discussions about these things.

This.

The antivaxxers have created a situation where doctors are afraid of their words being twisted by those with an agenda.

[Yehuda57]

Lots of things are generally safe.


Right off the bat I'm concerned about what metals in your body do to you long term-  (and not just with vaccines- with all products with various metals-  ) and I'd like more research done as to the best way and ages to administer these vaccines - and ultimately I'd just like transparency in the benefits as well as the side effects on your body when taking vaccines especially at such a young age and the changes it makes to your immune system.
 
         Nothing is without some side effect.  That's not a question. And generally we try to make the best decision about anything that goes into our bodies.  And when you put something into your body you're basically saying the benefits outweigh the risks or are worth the side effects.

That's with anything whether it be an Advil, blood pressure medicine, antibiotics, the flu shot, etc . 


Also and this is just a side note- because you asked-  I do have concerns over some of the vaccines specifically. Like the HPV virus for example.
        I don't know enough. But I feel like I should have the right to ask. That's all.

And I ultimately believe that most people still choose to give most vaccines even if they had more information.



What boggles my mind the most is those that don't even know what they are vaccinating for.  Even if you trust the doctor, don't you ask? Just for knowledge sake.  What's this shot for... etc . I just feel like when your 2 year old is getting over 20 vaccines by that age it seems odd to not even ask.

The same way if you were in the hospital and your kid was getting treatment for something you'd ask. What's this? What's it for? What's it do..etc.   


I really think those on both sides of the extreme have made it hard to have discussions about these things.

But if you're lucky you find a good doctor that is respectful and knowledgeable and answers to the best of their ability.

Here's a good start to hear about the dangers and side effects.

https://www.gimletmedia.com/science-vs/vaccines-are-they-safe#episode-player

Sadly, the rate of children who go "otd" is far higher than the rate of children who suffer even mild side effects. Risking your daughter getting hpv in the future because you are frum now is questionable practice.

Some parents do skip some vaccinations, such as chicken pox. And I understand that - growing up, everyone I knew got chicken pox at some stage. It was annoying, but far from dangerous. Little did I know that some people have died from chicken pox, and my sister in law came pretty close, though BH ended up ok. My kids will get the vaccine, thankyewverymuch

[mmgfarb]

Are all vaccines the same?

[yesitsme]

The reason so many people are getting the vaccine now is because of the outbreak they pushed up the schedule. My 2 yo got his 2nd dose even though normally he wouldn't get it till 4 yo

I gave 3 shots in chemed last week
2 second dose
1 1st as every time I went to give shots dr didn't want to give as she/he had a runny nose, cold etc.

[mmgfarb]

Not 100% sure what you mean by this but no. They aren't.

The question wasn't really directed at you.