Vaccine Discussion Master Thread

[chaimmayer]

Literally no one says vaccines have no risks at all.

-1
Dr. Rich Roberts definitely said it and he is not the only one.

[Yehuda57]

-1
Dr. Rich Roberts definitely said it and he is not the only one.

Sorry, literally no expert on the topic.

He comes off to me as equally conspiratorial to anti vaxxers

[aygart]

-1
Dr. Rich Roberts definitely said it and he is not the only one.

He said no risk at all of anything or no risk of autism?

[YitzyS]

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that the rabbanim are not really dealing with the anti vaxxers claims.  The anti vaxxers are saying that they don't want to give vaccines because of the risk of autism or much worse.
All of the halachic discussions are not really dealing with this טענה.  Either they tell them that it's just not true and there is absolutely no risk or they discuss the need to protect others.  However when they do that the way it sounds is more like don't be lazy go get vaccinated.  They don't really deal with the question of how much do I have to put myself in sakanah in order to protect others.

The anti vaxxers I know are upset that  the rabbanim and doctors are saying their מציאות is wrong and that there is no risk when in fact the CDC itself admits to there being a risk.  As to how much you are required to put yourself in sakkana I just don't hear that being addressed.

A notable exception is Rav Moshe Meir Weiss on the headlines podcast said clearly that yes there is a risk but the pros outweigh the cons.

Rabbi Dr. Akiva Tatz (also on headlines) says over from Rav Elyashiv that there is a chiyuv even if there’s a risk.

[mmgfarb]

Rabbi Dr. Akiva Tatz (also on headlines) says over from Rav Elyashiv that there is a chiyuv even if there’s a risk.

Where does the chiyuv come from? Is there any actual writing from R' Elyashiv or just hearsay?

[thaber]

Where does the chiyuv come from? Is there any actual writing from R' Elyashiv or just hearsay?

In rabbi tatzs book, dangerous disease and dangerous therapy.

In the tiferes Yisroel to yoma 8:3 specifically regarding vaccines, which were actually very dangerous then,. He brings statistics, look it up.
ETA, there's very little actual writing from Rav elyashiv

[mmgfarb]

In rabbi tatzs book, dangerous disease and dangerous therapy.

In the tiferes Yisroel to yoma 8:3 specifically regarding vaccines, which were actually very dangerous then,. He brings statistics, look it up.

What do statistics have to do with anything? What halacha in shulchan aruch is relevant to whether or not you have a chiyuv to vaccinate? I'm not just being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious. Everybody keeps talking about whether or not there is a chiyuv but nobody that I've seen here has said what it actually is besides for maybe v'nishmartem which seems like a stretch to me.

[thaber]

What do statistics have to do with anything? What halacha in shulchan aruch is relevant to whether or not you have a chiyuv to vaccinate? I'm not just being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious. Everybody keeps talking about whether or not there is a chiyuv but nobody that I've seen here has said what it actually is besides for maybe v'nishmartem which seems like a stretch to me.

Look up the tiferes Yisroel.
Step 2 -
If the statistics are low then you have shomer pesoim Hashem. (Rema). And a chiyuv to help the tzibbur.

[Boruch999]

-1
Dr. Rich Roberts definitely said it and he is not the only one.

IINM in a previous video posted to TLS he explicitly addressed the risks and called them negligible. No one rational would say there is no risk.

I believe he compared it to wearing a seat belt.  There are certain situations where where wearing a seat belt can leave you worse off than if you hadn't been wearing a seat belt.  To then say that therefore I won't wear a seat belt is insanity.

[mmgfarb]

Look up the tiferes Yisroel.
Step 2 -
If the statistics are low then you have shomer pesoim Hashem. (Rema). And a chiyuv to help the tzibbur.

thanks, will have a look

[chaimmayer]

IINM in a previous video posted to TLS he explicitly addressed the risks and called them negligible. No one rational would say there is no risk.

He wrote them all off saying they were crazy and that their leaders are somehow profiting off all this.

The anti vaxxers point out that vaccine court has paid out damages for vaccine injuries.  They say this proves there are occasional problems.  Roberts said he doesn't believe the mothers.  He also said, ya they got a shot yesterday they also ate chocolate cake.   Proove a connection.

Imho showing where there mistake is is persausive, just calling them crazy and ignoring the points they raise is not.

I don't know if there is a connection or not but I wish the experts would shlug them up not just call them names.

[YitzyS]

Where does the chiyuv come from? Is there any actual writing from R' Elyashiv or just hearsay?

I will write a synopsis of what he said on the matter, though I strongly advise you listen yourself (podcast is available on itunes) because he says it over very eloquently and understandably.

A patient of his in Eretz Yisroel once asked him about the risks of taking the pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine. Rabbi/Dr. Tatz said that studies (of the vaccine administered at that time) have proven that it is not totally safe, as one in 40,000 people died from the vaccine, yet it was still the right thing to do as the risk of dying from whooping cough was much greater than 1 in 40,000. Rabbi Tatz then admitted that actually, if he did not give the shot, there would be no danger to the child, as there was already herd immunity, though it would not be right to the public. The two decided to go to Rav Elyashiv together and present the dilemma.

They went to Rav Elyashiv and they explained him the facts (in that case, a definite sakana...) and Rav Elyashiv ruled that everyone must vaccinate, and if someone refuses, steps should be made to ensure that he is compliant. On their way out, Rabbi Tatz said in passing, "Surely the rov paskened like that because it would be selfish to the tzibur not to vaccinate." Rav Elyashiv responded that his psak had nothing to do with the tzibur, but rather it was incumbent on everyone as an individual to vaccinate. Rav Elyashiv then explained that vaccinations are a "davar she'dash bo rabbim". He explained that regarding sakana, something that has become acceptable to do is no longer assur. For example, more people die each year from car accidents than from most other causes of death. Yet, it is not halachically assur to drive a car. He said that the same rational applies to vaccinations.

I don't believe he added this, but I think that it's obvious that Rav Elyashiv's reasoning for saying that he MUST vaccinate is because once we determined that there's no Issur, it thereby becomes a chiyuv as it can save your life.

Again, I'm writing this from recollection, but I strongly advise you hear it yourself.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/headlines/id1048703487?mt=2
(It's in the one posted 11/9/18)

[Boruch999]

He wrote them all off saying they were crazy and that their leaders are somehow profiting off all this.

The anti vaxxers point out that vaccine court has paid out damages for vaccine injuries.  They say this proves there are occasional problems.  Roberts said he doesn't believe the mothers.  He also said, ya they got a shot yesterday they also ate chocolate cake.   Proove a connection.

Imho showing where there mistake is is persausive, just calling them crazy and ignoring the points they raise is not.

I don't know if there is a connection or not but I wish the experts would shlug them up not just call them names.

Did you watch his previous video?

http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2018/03/exclusive-video-dr-rich-roberts-takes-on-the-anti-vaxxers.html

I'm not sure what his agenda is with this video, but he explained it pretty well in the previous one. Anyone not convinced by those arguments would seem to have to be a conspiracy theorist. In my book that qualifies for the label of crazy.

[Yehuda57]

He wrote them all off saying they were crazy and that their leaders are somehow profiting off all this.

The anti vaxxers point out that vaccine court has paid out damages for vaccine injuries.  They say this proves there are occasional problems.  Roberts said he doesn't believe the mothers.  He also said, ya they got a shot yesterday they also ate chocolate cake.   Proove a connection.

Imho showing where there mistake is is persausive, just calling them crazy and ignoring the points they raise is not.

I don't know if there is a connection or not but I wish the experts would shlug them up not just call them names.

The experts have done that.

[chaimmayer]

So as I understand it the anti chevra have two issues with this.

One they claim that the מציאות being presented is incorrect.  They claim there is a danger involved with giving the vaccine.  It sounds a bit preposterous but they say that no proper research has been done and that is because the medical establishment won't allow it.  They scream that the vaccine companies cannot be sued but nevertheless there are cases where they lost in the special vaccine court.  They claim that there are definite cases where there were vaccine injuries and the doctor was not allowed to report it.
This sounds quite far fetched to me.  I imagine that if someone like Rabbi Tatz who has both the medical knowledge and the halachic knowledge says he researched it then he did.  Nevertheless they claim the information he is being fed is censored and inaccurate.

Two- it is true it is not halachicly ossur to drive a car but no one forces you to do so.  אין הנידון דומה לראיה where people are being forced to get vaccines.

It is true that the sevara of דש בה רבים takes care of the sakana question but then where does the chiyuv come from?  You say ונשמרתם.  They say that it is not true and actually you are safer if you do not because a)they don't really help (see del bigtree) and b) the vaccines themselves endanger you.

[Yehuda57]

So as I understand it the anti chevra have two issues with this.

One they claim that the מציאות being presented is incorrect.  They claim there is a danger involved with giving the vaccine.  It sounds a bit preposterous but they say that no proper research has been done and that is because the medical establishment won't allow it.  They scream that the vaccine companies cannot be sued but nevertheless there are cases where they lost in the special vaccine court.  They claim that there are definite cases where there were vaccine injuries and the doctor was not allowed to report it.
This sounds quite far fetched to me.  I imagine that if someone like Rabbi Tatz who has both the medical knowledge and the halachic knowledge says he researched it then he did.  Nevertheless they claim the information he is being fed is censored and inaccurate.

Two- it is true it is not halachicly ossur to drive a car but no one forces you to do so.  אין הנידון דומה לראיה where people are being forced to get vaccines.

It is true that the sevara of דש בה רבים takes care of the sakana question but then where does the chiyuv come from?  You say ונשמרתם.  They say that it is not true and actually you are safer if you do not because a)they don't really help (see del bigtree) and b) the vaccines themselves endanger you.

1) The idea that vaccinations are not studied is a complete misnomer. There are hundreds of studies done with *millions* of children. True, there hasn't been a double blind study, because that would the height of unethical medical behavior. But vaccines have been studied plenty. Do you want sources?

Vaccines are safe. They do not cause autism. This has been proven again and again.

If the conspiratorial stories are true, why don't we hear them in every other civilized country outside of America where the CDC can't suppress them?

2) Rabbi Tatz said the psak was not that דש בה רבים makes it *ok* to vaccinate, but that it makes it a *chiyuv.* In addition to that psak, you have many others that it goes under v'nishmartem.

Regarding a) they don't work - again this has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt. It is the height of absurdity to say otherwise.  2) This goes back to what we said before, they have been proven safe. Not just by the CDC or some doctors in America being paid off, but across the world in any country that does any sort of medical research. Vaccines are safe.

[chaimmayer]

Far be it from me to question Rav Elyashiv but תורה היא וללמוד אני צריך.
Why should דשו בה create a chiyuv?  In his life he did "what everyone was doing?"  Why should it force someone to do something he thinks is dangerous?

As far as the studies go I proclaim ignorance.  I know that the pro chevra say they are perfectly safe and the anti chevra say they are dangerous.  For you it's simple to say that the anti people are delusional, making up facts, misunderstanding etc.  I find it hard to believe you are right.  (Yes the guy on headlines was crazy and did not present a good case when he started saying that bin laden was not behind 9-11.).
 The anti vaxxers think they have a lot of science and facts are their side.  Is It really all hogwash?  I don't know enough to discern who is correct on this matter.  If there really is some truth in anything they are saying then just dismissing it and ignoring it makes their claims stronger.

[Boruch999]

As far as the studies go I proclaim ignorance.  I know that the pro chevra say they are perfectly safe and the anti chevra say they are dangerous.  For you it's simple to say that the anti people are delusional, making up facts, misunderstanding etc.  I find it hard to believe you are right.  (Yes the guy on headlines was crazy and did not present a good case when he started saying that bin laden was not behind 9-11.).
 The anti vaxxers think they have a lot of science and facts are their side.  Is It really all hogwash?  I don't know enough to discern who is correct on this matter.  If there really is some truth in anything they are saying then just dismissing it and ignoring it makes their claims stronger.

Virtually all medical doctors and anyone else with an education that gives them a basis for a well informed opinion says vaccines are safe and their benefits far outweigh their risks.  That doesn't give you the basis to discern that the pro-vaxxers are probably correct?

[Definitions]

As far as the studies go I proclaim ignorance.  I know that the pro chevra say they are perfectly safe and the anti chevra say they are dangerous.  For you it's simple to say that the anti people are delusional, making up facts, misunderstanding etc.  I find it hard to believe you are right.  (Yes the guy on headlines was crazy and did not present a good case when he started saying that bin laden was not behind 9-11.).
 The anti vaxxers think they have a lot of science and facts are their side.  Is It really all hogwash?  I don't know enough to discern who is correct on this matter.  If there really is some truth in anything they are saying then just dismissing it and ignoring it makes their claims stronger.

It's the fear of the unknown thats making them worried not any of their "studies".

[chaimmayer]

Virtually all medical doctors and anyone else with an education that gives them a basis for a well informed opinion says vaccines are safe and their benefits far outweigh their risks.  That doesn't give you the basis to discern that the pro-vaxxers are probably correct?

I personally find it compelling.  One of my favorites is the mug that says "please don't confuse your google search with my medical degree." 
Nevertheless there seems to be a strong indication that they are sweeping things under the rug.  When I asked my pro vax doctor if it's crazy to not give vaccines he said no it's not.  There are real issues.  Whether it's because of big pharma or some type of cherem in the medical community there appears to be some ignoring of certain reports.

The anti vaxxers have stories of deaths, autism, and serious illness from vaccines.  Are they making it up?

Rav Elyashiv is quoted as having said that he doesn't have ruach hakodesh and he can only pasken a shaila based on the information he was given.  If the information is faulty the psak will be too.  Is the medical community presenting accurate information to the rabbanim or is there some cover up?

What I cannot discern for myself is whose מציאות is correct.  The way most doctors and rabbanim are presenting it is that there is no truth whatsoever to the anti vaxxers.  This appears to me to be incorrect and therefore I question who is correct.

Ok I feel like I am repeating myself and just going around in circles.
Sorry I'm just confused.