Topic Wiki

The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
121 (37.6%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
196 (60.9%)

Total Members Voted: 320

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 544453 times)

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2420 on: November 29, 2018, 05:03:23 PM »
I am surprised Dr Wertzberger's results regarding the HepA vaccine aren't even mentioned here. I remember hepatitis being fairly common and dangerous but now much more rare. that can't be attributed to better sanitation between 1990 and now. He actually did a double blind in Monroe.

Really? Documented? Link?

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2421 on: November 29, 2018, 05:03:59 PM »
Source?
Read the Wikipedia article to start
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2422 on: November 29, 2018, 05:10:14 PM »
Source?

Quote from: Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal
the World Health Organization has concluded that there is no evidence of toxicity from thiomersal in vaccines and no reason on safety grounds to change to more expensive single-dose administration.[18] The United Nations Environment Program backed away from an earlier proposal of adding thiomersal in vaccines to the list of banned compounds in a treaty aimed at reducing exposure to mercury worldwide.[19] Citing medical and scientific consensus that thiomersal in vaccines posed no safety issues, but that eliminating the preservative in multi-dose vaccines, primarily used in developing countries, will lead to high cost and a requirement for refrigeration which the developing countries can ill afford, the UN's final decision is to exclude thiomersal from the treaty.[20]

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2423 on: November 29, 2018, 05:12:55 PM »
Quote
Concerns based on extrapolations from methylmercury caused thiomersal to be removed from U.S. childhood vaccines, starting in 1999. Since then, it has been found that ethylmercury is eliminated from the body and the brain significantly faster than methylmercury, so the late-1990s risk assessments turned out to be overly conservative.[23]

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2424 on: November 29, 2018, 05:16:09 PM »
+1. Went straight to the article and I see the opposite of what mmgfarb claimed. This is a common thread in these kinds of discussions.
You're totally misrepresenting what I said. All I said was that the mercury concern was the reason it was removed, not whether or not that concern ended up being valid or not.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2425 on: November 29, 2018, 05:19:35 PM »
You're totally misrepresenting what I said. All I said was that the mercury concern was the reason it was removed, not whether or not that concern ended up being valid or not.
Roll the tape:
Right, but then they'll scream mercury and show you a study that it's dangerous without noticing that the amount of mercury is so small that there is no danger
Thiomersal was actually removed from almost all children's vaccines, besides for some flu shots, as a precautionary measure because of the mercury in it.
The implication of your comment in context was that it is in fact dangerous. The fact that it was once thought to potentially be dangerous (because it hadn't been studied yet at the time and because of the perceived similarity to other kinds of mercury) has no bearing on this discussion today.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2426 on: December 02, 2018, 07:20:43 AM »
Really? Documented? Link?
Go on the website of New England Journal of Medicine and check the archives. There’s an article in the August 13, 1992 edition about the double-blind study with Dr. Werzberger as the leading author.

Offline shmielyosef

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2427 on: December 02, 2018, 07:26:47 AM »
Go on the website of New England Journal of Medicine and check the archives. There’s an article in the August 13, 1992 edition about the double-blind study with Dr. Werzberger as the leading author.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199208133270702

Offline YitzyS

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Offline chaimmayer

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2429 on: December 02, 2018, 08:37:17 PM »
I cannot vouch if this is real or fake news.

Former ny state senator died (maybe) from a flu vaccine
https://thevaccinereaction.org/2018/11/new-york-state-senator-jose-peralta-was-diagnosed-as-having-died-of-sepsis/

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2430 on: December 02, 2018, 10:36:25 PM »


I cannot vouch if this is real or fake news.

Former ny state senator died (maybe) from a flu vaccine
https://thevaccinereaction.org/2018/11/new-york-state-senator-jose-peralta-was-diagnosed-as-having-died-of-sepsis/

The article itself says it's fake news:
Quote
Currently, there is no evidence that Sen. Peralta’s sudden death was caused by the influenza vaccination he had recently received.

Offline sky121

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2431 on: December 02, 2018, 11:58:17 PM »
This whole vaccine business really reminded me how much people love to fight.


Also surprised as to how many people feel the need to make some kind of "excuse" for the Rabbonim to hold differently about vaccines than most of the ones speaking out. 



Anyone who has done their fair research (and it's not easy to do having to weed through all the extreme pro and extreme anti information to find honest open minded information) can only come to one conclusion in my opinion.  And that is that there are risks and we don't really know the extent of them. But that's it.

I don't think we have enough information to say it would be better to just stop vaccinating.
Like mentioned many times before- Vaccines have helped prevent many awful diseases and death.


On the flip side I don't really know how I feel about mandating vaccines.

Besides for families who have kids who have had adverse reactions to vaccines and were told to not vaccinate the others (even by doctors who are pro vaccine)
And besides for those who for other various reasons are considered too weak or have compromised immune systems and can't vaccinate.

Is it fair to mandate something we know has risks?

And for everyone saying they are safe. Even our own government classifies vaccines as "unavoidably unsafe". 
Even the CDC clearly spells out the side effects that may occur with many vaccines including seizures and brain damage.


I feel like if people really want to have a productive conversation the "pro" side has to understand there are in indeed risks and risks that many people (even if they are a small percentage) have experienced.
And the "anti" side has to understand that these diseases that can occur can be extremely terrible and cause many problems as well including death.  And while vaccines may have risks and while we don't know their accuracy levels etc they clearly have been doing something.
For both sides to even have a conversation they need to at least acknowledge that.








"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2432 on: December 03, 2018, 12:09:42 AM »
I feel like if people really want to have a productive conversation the "pro" side has to understand there are in indeed risks and risks that many people (even if they are a small percentage) have experienced.
And the "anti" side has to understand that these diseases that can occur can be extremely terrible and cause many problems as well including death.  And while vaccines may have risks and while we don't know their accuracy levels etc they clearly have been doing something.
For both sides to even have a conversation they need to at least acknowledge that.
This can be said about just every major dispute. It just doesn't happen.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline shmielyosef

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2433 on: December 03, 2018, 06:06:21 AM »

And for everyone saying they are safe. Even our own government classifies vaccines as "unavoidably unsafe". 
Even the CDC clearly spells out the side effects that may occur with many vaccines including seizures and brain damage.
'unavoidably unsafe'  do u know the definition of that? Or ur just parroting anti-vaxxer propaganda?
There's a very clear difference between side effects and adverse reactions. The latter being very rare and affecting people with an intolerance to an ingredient in the vaccine, (as by some drugs as well).  I doubt brain damage is in the side effects section, otherwise all the studies done about the links to nerodevelopmental disorders would have shown other results. Don't you think?
Unless of course you believe in conspiracies....

Offline shmielyosef

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2434 on: December 03, 2018, 06:12:51 AM »



Anyone who has done their fair research (and it's not easy to do having to weed through all the extreme pro and extreme anti information to find honest open minded information) can only come to one conclusion in my opinion.  And that is that there are risks and we don't really know the extent of them. But that's it.

There isn't really any "extreme" anti information. Its more like propaganda, and misquoting, cherry picking, and hyper-focus on the adverse reactions etc.

There are always risks in everything. How big are they though?

Offline sky121

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2435 on: December 03, 2018, 06:14:35 AM »
'unavoidably unsafe'  do u know the definition of that? Or ur just parroting anti-vaxxer propaganda?
There's a very clear difference between side effects and adverse reactions. The latter being very rare and affecting people with an intolerance to an ingredient in the vaccine, (as by some drugs as well).  I doubt brain damage is in the side effects section, otherwise all the studies done about the links to nerodevelopmental disorders would have shown other results. Don't you think?
Unless of course you believe in conspiracies....
You're right. My bad on using side effects versus adverse reaction if there is a clear difference.
Especially because I think it's important to be as precise as possible when having these discussions.


Either way my point was that people have concerns because however small they might be there are potential risks.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline shmielyosef

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2436 on: December 03, 2018, 06:16:23 AM »
You're right. My bad on using side effects versus adverse reaction if there is a clear difference.
Especially because I think it's important to be as precise as possible when having these discussions.


Either way my point was that people have concerns because however small they might be there are potential risks.
So they should discuss it with they're doctor and weigh it against the risks of what they're preventing. Almost all people will decide that its worth it. Unless they've been influenced by the screams of the antivax movement

Offline sky121

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2437 on: December 03, 2018, 06:20:26 AM »
Btw the CDC just says they are 'possible reactions' with different levels of occurrence. 
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline shmielyosef

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2438 on: December 03, 2018, 06:20:44 AM »

I feel like if people really want to have a productive conversation the "pro" side has to understand there are in indeed risks and risks that many people (even if they are a small percentage) have experienced.
The reason we use percentages and not how many people in these calculations, is presumably because when ur dealing with such a large population anything small is super magnified. For example pedestrians getting hit by a car. If i were to focus on the number of people that get killed daily (i dont know the numbers), i probably would avoid walking on tbe street if not 100% necessary.

Offline shmielyosef

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2439 on: December 03, 2018, 06:45:39 AM »
Btw the CDC just says they are 'possible reactions' with different levels of occurrence.
Not sure what you're referring to. This page at CDC https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/sideeffects/index.html explains the different type of adverse events