Topic Wiki

The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
115 (37.7%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
185 (60.7%)

Total Members Voted: 304

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 258091 times)

Online CountValentine

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2820 on: December 08, 2019, 06:30:57 PM »
ďDeath from measles was reported in approximately 0.2% of the cases in the United States from 1985 through 1992. As with other complications of measles, the risk of death is highest among young children and adults.Ē

* https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/meas.html
Why are you quoting 25+ year old data? Great strides have been made in medicine since then. Were there any deaths this year from measles in the US?
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2821 on: December 08, 2019, 09:05:39 PM »
There were about 1000 cases in the US this year. Based on that data we would expect 2 deaths. The fact that 2 people didnít die can be attributed to the same factors I cited above (namely random chance, different virulence strain, more middle aged people as opposed to kids, better healthcare systems etc). With such small data sets it is impossible to infer anything like mortality rate. Thatís why the older data is useful, it is a large enough set as to be statistically significant.

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2822 on: December 08, 2019, 09:10:21 PM »
There were about 1000 cases in the US this year. Based on that data we would expect 2 deaths. The fact that 2 people didnít die can be attributed to the same factors I cited above (namely random chance, different virulence strain, more middle aged people as opposed to kids, better healthcare systems etc). With such small data sets it is impossible to infer anything like mortality rate. Thatís why the older data is useful, it is a large enough set as to be statistically significant.
This all true expect for the great advancements that have been made in medicine.
I want to make it clear I am in no way making an argument for not getting vaccinated.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2823 on: December 09, 2019, 02:17:35 AM »
This all true expect for the great advancements that have been made in medicine.
I want to make it clear I am in no way making an argument for not getting vaccinated.

Right, you are just trolling.


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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2824 on: December 09, 2019, 04:39:23 AM »
Right, you are just trolling.
Please go back into the hole you came out of.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2825 on: December 09, 2019, 05:48:28 AM »
This all true expect for the great advancements that have been made in medicine.
I want to make it clear I am in no way making an argument for not getting vaccinated.

Are you arguing that the US has better ICUs and critical care medicine than Samoa and therefore we can expect fewer people to die... naturally thatís the case. But it would be ignorant if there are any parents who can say ďI would vaccinate if 60 kids died but not if those 60 kids were on a ventilator in the ICU for a month...Ē

Additionally my point about recognizing what measles can do when vaccination rates drop still stands regardless of total mortality rate.

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2826 on: December 09, 2019, 08:53:00 AM »
Are you arguing that the US has better ICUs and critical care medicine than Samoa and therefore we can expect fewer people to die... naturally thatís the case. But it would be ignorant if there are any parents who can say ďI would vaccinate if 60 kids died but not if those 60 kids were on a ventilator in the ICU for a month...Ē

Additionally my point about recognizing what measles can do when vaccination rates drop still stands regardless of total mortality rate.
My point is saying you will be on a ventilator or die from the measles is scare tactics. Yes it can and does happen.

All my kids were vaccinated. Everyone should have their kids vaccinated. 
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2827 on: December 09, 2019, 09:20:15 AM »
My point is saying you will be on a ventilator or die from the measles is scare tactics. Yes it can and does happen.

All my kids were vaccinated. Everyone should have their kids vaccinated. 
Are you saying scare tactics are bad in this case?

I wouldn't assume that to be the case.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2828 on: December 09, 2019, 10:37:56 AM »
So instead of finding any possible explanation for why they possibly may have not have all died entirely due to measles. ... 1 out of every 200 children on this small island have just died from measles - a vaccine preventable disease. let that sink in for a minute.

We could, but it's hard to ignore the huge elephant in the room that the medical community on that island also kills kids by watering down the vaccines with other harmful drugs

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2829 on: December 09, 2019, 11:00:44 AM »
Are you saying scare tactics are bad in this case?

I wouldn't assume that to be the case.
Scare tactics are always bad. In this case you agree that the ends justify the means but what about when you don't think so? Also, using scare tactics just feeds into what an anti-vaxxer would use as a counter argument making it possibly counter productive.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2830 on: December 09, 2019, 12:11:37 PM »
Are you saying scare tactics are bad in this case?

I wouldn't assume that to be the case.
Yes as education is more effective.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2831 on: December 09, 2019, 12:55:58 PM »
I have not used any scare tactics, I have stated simple verifiable facts. Kids in the USA have certainly been on ventilators as a result of current measles cases and a percentage would absolutely have died based on the most recent historical data that we have if there were to be a large enough sample size. Regardless, my point was that herd immunity is a real entity and this Samoa incident helps to prove that.

The anti-vaccine argument from when I had more free time to haunt these pages was 1) vaccines are not effective - disease has decreased concomitantly due to improvement in sanitation 2) herd immunity is a hoax. 

These 2 arguments are both ridiculous in light of what is happening in Samoa. I am still waiting for anyone to effectively argue otherwise.

@henche Samoa medicine is incomparable to US medicine. So are you saying the new anti-vax argument is that modern medicine is so good that there is no need for the vaccine that nearly all modern medical providers advocate for strongly? I hope the irony of such an argument is not lost.

Lastly, I donít know the quality of medicine on the island firsthand, but a few nursing aids mixing the vaccine with the wrong solvent hardly proves much about the care overall. Although I would imagine it leaves something to be desired. I still do not see why this changes the recognition of the anti-vaccine fallacy.

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2832 on: December 09, 2019, 01:05:13 PM »
Scare tactics are always bad. In this case you agree that the ends justify the means but what about when you don't think so? Also, using scare tactics just feeds into what an anti-vaxxer would use as a counter argument making it possibly counter productive.
Wait, so you don't hit your kids? Do you scare them that fire is dangerous? Or because in the case of kids not burning themselves the ends justify the means?

Yes as education is more effective.
Unless you clearly see education doesn't work when it comes to vaccines. Which I see all the time.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2833 on: December 09, 2019, 01:14:46 PM »


@henche Samoa medicine is incomparable to US medicine. So are you saying the new anti-vax argument is that modern medicine is so good that there is no need for the vaccine that nearly all modern medical providers advocate for strongly? I hope the irony of such an argument is not lost.

Lastly, I donít know the quality of medicine on the island firsthand, but a few nursing aids mixing the vaccine with the wrong solvent hardly proves much about the care overall. Although I would imagine it leaves something to be desired. I still do not see why this changes the recognition of the anti-vaccine fallacy.

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying this is a silly example of anything.


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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #2834 on: December 09, 2019, 01:27:09 PM »
I'm saying this is a silly example of anything.

Youíre a smart guy henche, but I will keep it simple.

Letís keep the fact that people have died or even gotten critically ill out of the discussion for now.

Vaccine rate for measles dropped significantly on Samoa and subsequently the measles rate increased exponentially. Scientifically this is due to the fact that measles is a highly contagious disease and that once the rate of vaccination drops below a minimal safe ďherdĒ threshold it spreads with ease.

1) Do you agree with this or do you have an alternative explanation for the chronological events occurring in Samoa.

2) do you agree that the well-peddled anti-vaccine argument that measles rates decreased solely as a direct result of improved sanitation standards must be false based on the current scenario in Samoa?