Topic Wiki

The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
115 (37.5%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
187 (60.9%)

Total Members Voted: 306

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 272004 times)

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #330 on: November 11, 2013, 12:11:02 PM »
I knew this discussion was lingering just around the corner. It mixes up two very different (and only tangentially related) topics; Flu vaccine and other vaccines. I officially hate this thread, it honestly makes me worry about our future as a thinking society.

This one. http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056%2FNEJMoa1202865&iid=t01

I don't see anything.

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #331 on: November 11, 2013, 12:14:40 PM »
I knew this discussion was lingering just around the corner. It mixes up two very different (and only tangentially related) topics; Flu vaccine and other vaccines. I officially hate this thread, it honestly makes me worry about our future as a thinking society.


How are flu vaccines that much different than other vaccines?

Quote
I don't see anything.
Are you on mobile? Looks like a flash based page.
ETA. Here is a screenshot.

Offline Dan

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #332 on: November 11, 2013, 12:15:05 PM »
As long as we're throwing out things from Google:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1633545/

And from your chart it does look like Orchitis is higher among the non-vaccinated.

Also from Google:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2079103/pdf/brmedj03618-0041.pdf
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #333 on: November 11, 2013, 12:17:40 PM »

Does this mean you have inside knowledge of the reading habits of Jewish women?
How do you know they are only reading this one book?
In my close circle of family and friends there are quite a few Jewish women who don't mind sharing their reading habits with me. 1 trend I've noticed is that all those who advocate being "open minded" and "thinking for yourself" based on such books have little tolerance for the opinion that doctors may actually know what they are talking about...

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #334 on: November 11, 2013, 12:31:21 PM »
As long as we're throwing out things from Google:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1633545/
I'm not throwing out random Google searches. I posted a chart showing the data from the outbreak you referenced and asking you to back up your claim.

Quote
And from your chart it does look like Orchitis is higher among the non-vaccinated.
I don't know if a difference of 2 percentage points is statistically relevant but if you want to bring that up, don't neglect to mention that the incidence of meningitis, oophoritis, pancreatitis, deafness, mastitis, Bell's palsy, and encephalitis are all higher by the vaccinated.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #335 on: November 11, 2013, 12:32:44 PM »
ETA. Here is a screenshot.

You use that chart to say that no one became infertile as a result. The chart makes no mention on fertility checks. One possible reason why it does not discuss fertility issues is because many of these studies were done on Orthodox Jewish boys who would be hesitant to participate in such a study.

To paraphrase this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1633545/:
Impairment of fertility is estimated to occur in about 13% of patients, while 30%-87% of patients with bilateral mumps orchitis experience infertility. 10%-30% of orchitis is bilateral.
From your chart it seems that about 11.3% of unvaccinated patients had orchitis.

This adds up to (on the high end) .87*.3*.113 = 3% of unvaccinated people afflicted with mumps are infertile (with a much larger # being subfertile and requiring IVF for the hope of having children).

Offline Dan

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #336 on: November 11, 2013, 12:34:37 PM »
I'm not throwing out random Google searches. I posted a chart showing the data from the outbreak you referenced and asking you to back up your claim.
I don't know if a difference of 2 percentage points is statistically relevant but if you want to bring that up, don't neglect to mention that the incidence of meningitis, oophoritis, pancreatitis, deafness, mastitis, Bell's palsy, and encephalitis are all higher by the vaccinated.
I don't pretend to know how to read what you posted, but it seems like the testicle issues occur in 11% of non-vaccinated versus 3% of vaccinated.

Did you read the links I posted?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #337 on: November 11, 2013, 12:35:52 PM »
I don't know if a difference of 2 percentage points is statistically relevant but if you want to bring that up, don't neglect to mention that the incidence of meningitis, oophoritis, pancreatitis, deafness, mastitis, Bell's palsy, and encephalitis are all higher by the vaccinated.

Not sure where you see 2% difference. Regardless you are not reading that chart correctly. If you want to make comparisons between different groups you must use the 95% CI. The difference in orchitis is a statistically significant difference while all the others you mentioned are not (and therefore likely anomalies).

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #338 on: November 11, 2013, 12:36:51 PM »
In my close circle of family and friends there are quite a few Jewish women who don't mind sharing their reading habits with me. 1 trend I've noticed is that all those who advocate being "open minded" and "thinking for yourself" based on such books have little tolerance for the opinion that doctors may actually know what they are talking about...
I don't know how you know that their desire to be "open minded" and "thinking for themselves" comes solely from these books but the fact that these people who consider themselves to be open minded and thinking are singing the same tune should at least make you think.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #339 on: November 11, 2013, 12:38:28 PM »
How are flu vaccines that much different than other vaccines?

Flu vaccines change every year and therefore do not have the luxury of being tested by many scientists over a matter of years. Furthermore The other vaccines have a higher success rate, and treat a more deadly disease (except possibly in the very young and elderly).

I still believe it is important to get the flu vaccine if you have any contact with at-risk groups but I can see a stronger argument being made to avoid it as opposed to the others.

Online Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #340 on: November 11, 2013, 12:38:58 PM »
How are flu vaccines that much different than other vaccines?
Flu vaccines are known to be a guess in the strain and, therefore, there is less of a chance that the vaccine helps. They are also usually made quicker and have less testing done before available to the public.

Online skyguy918

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #341 on: November 11, 2013, 12:48:02 PM »
Flu vaccines change every year and therefore do not have the luxury of being tested by many scientists over a matter of years. Furthermore The other vaccines have a higher success rate, and treat a more deadly disease (except possibly in the very young and elderly).

I still believe it is important to get the flu vaccine if you have any contact with at-risk groups but I can see a stronger argument being made to avoid it as opposed to the others.
+1, I know of at least one pediatrician that does selective vaccination. She heavily researches both the vaccine and the disease it's designed to protect against and makes a determination as to whether it's necessary. That's not to say specifically that she doesn't recommend the flu vaccine (I don't actually know), but the point is that people lump everything together when each vaccine may be at least a slightly different discussion.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #342 on: November 11, 2013, 12:50:25 PM »
I don't know how you know that their desire to be "open minded" and "thinking for themselves" comes solely from these books but the fact that these people who consider themselves to be open minded and thinking are singing the same tune should at least make you think.
I did not say it comes from reading these books. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #343 on: November 11, 2013, 12:53:34 PM »
+1, I know of at least one pediatrician that does selective vaccination. She heavily researches both the vaccine and the disease it's designed to protect against and makes a determination as to whether it's necessary. That's not to say specifically that she doesn't recommend the flu vaccine (I don't actually know), but the point is that people lump everything together when each vaccine may be at least a slightly different discussion.

Yes but MMR, Hepatitis B, tdap and Polio amongst others are crucial life-saving shots that have been tested long enough and shown enough worth to be an accepted part of society today. Ppl who argue against it (yet might even take it themselves) just leave the ignorant masses confused and a danger to themselves and others.

Offline elikay

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #344 on: November 11, 2013, 01:07:27 PM »
The flu shot has a terrible track record compared to other vaccinations.