Topic Wiki

The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
115 (37.5%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
187 (60.9%)

Total Members Voted: 306

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 272096 times)

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #375 on: November 12, 2013, 11:38:09 PM »
OK- let's ramp up this lively discussion a bit with another question-  How many parents have vaccinated their teenage children with the HPV Vaccine (Gardisil)?
If you have any faith in vaccines, you really don't want to go down that road.
Gardasil has one of the highest risk to benefit ratios of any vaccine on the market

Offline pghtown

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #376 on: November 12, 2013, 11:39:44 PM »
If you have any faith in vaccines, you really don't want to go down that road.
Gardasil has one of the highest risk to benefit ratios of any vaccine on the market
That statement is absolutely false.  It has dramatically reduced cervical cancer which is a major killer of women worldwide.

Offline pghtown

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #377 on: November 12, 2013, 11:42:42 PM »
While an informed consumer is always best.  Just like I defer to Dan our expert on frequent flier issues, I defer to the scientists and physicians who have the expertise and knowledge to provide an informed opinion based on scientific evidence.

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #378 on: November 13, 2013, 11:10:28 AM »
That statement is absolutely false.  It has dramatically reduced cervical cancer which is a major killer of women worldwide.
Please post references before making outrageous statements.

Just wrong.
#1. It supposedly prevents the HPV virus, which can lead to cervical cancer if it doesn't heal by itself.
From cancer.gov,
Quote
Most infections with high-risk HPVs do not cause cancer. Many HPV infections go away on their own within 1 to 2 years. However, infections that last for many years increase a personís risk of developing cancer.
Furthermore, both HPV vaccines are only effective against 2 strains of cancer causing HPV. HPV is a family of over 150 viruses, 40 of which can cause cancer . If there was any exposure to HPV before vaccination, the vaccine is useless.

HPV can also easily be detected by a simple pap smear. Being that HPV lingers for 10-20 years before causing serious lesions that in only 50% of cases lead to cervical cancer, a routine pap smear during that timeframe will easily detect the virus.
Quote
In clinical trials, 361 of 8,817 women who received at least one shot of Gardasil went on to develop precancerous lesions on their cervixes within three years of vaccination, just 14% fewer than in a placebo control group.
Hardly a slam dunk.
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/HPV
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB117668541991270825

#2. Here is a search of VAERS showing over 1,100 cases of serious side effects or death from HPV vaccines. Japan has withdrawn its recommendation for HPV vaccination programs after thousands of cases of serious side effects were reported.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/806645
Merck has only tested the vaccine in several hundred young girls aged 11- and 12-years, yet the company lobbied dozens of states to make the vaccine mandatory for 11- and 12-year-old girls even if they are not sexually active.
Listen to what Dr. Diane Harper, one of the lead researchers for the Merck drug who helped design and carry out the Phase II and Phase III safety and effectiveness studies to get Gardasil approved, and authored many of the published, scholarly papers about it had to say about that.
Quote
If we vaccinate 11 year olds and the protection doesn't last... we've put them at harm from side effects, small but real, for no benefit," says Dr. Harper. "The benefit to public health is nothing, there is no reduction in cervical cancers, they are just postponed. Enough serious side effects have been reported after Gardasil use that the vaccine could prove riskier than the cervical cancer it purports to prevent. Cervical cancer is usually entirely curable when detected early through normal Pap screenings.
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500690_162-5253431.html

If you feel comfortable giving that to an 11 year old, that's your decision. Just make sure you weigh the pros and cons carefully before injecting your child with a vaccine that can kill or seriously maim them for life with little or no benefit.

Offline Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #379 on: November 13, 2013, 11:28:10 AM »
like all issues in life one should ask a competent halachic authority.
I thing I posted up thread: The consensus of the poskim is that we do not have to be choshes at all for the miut damage and we are absolutely obligated to listen to the vast majority of doctors who say that this saves lives.
Probably depends how you ask the question...
The halachic answer that I got (for me) from a posek, was that: Since vast majority of doctors say it saves lives, you can't just go against them. However, if you research by speaking to ppl with knowledge in the field (doctors etc) then proper hishtadlus is to go with what makes the most sense...

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #380 on: November 13, 2013, 12:32:36 PM »
1. Gardasil is quadrivalent (protects against 4 strains)
2. there are 30-40 types of HPV that can cause cancer but only ~15 that can cause "high-risk" cancer (the low-risk very rarely cause cancer). Amongst these type 16 & 18 (included in both vaccines) cause >70% of all cervical cancers.
3. It is unclear whether exposure prior to vaccination limits its effect, it was not studied during the initial experiments.

4. A routine pap smear will likely not detect the virus (only ~50% of of high-grade "pre-cancer" are detected). It has low sensitivity as a test but becomes a much better diagnostic tool when used repeatedly.
5. The study you quote is measuring the reduction of cervical cancer due to any strain (the # are much higher when looking at the strains targeted). Regardless women have a 1/147 chance of developing cervical cancer in their lifetime. That is ~1.2 million women in the USA who will get cervical cancer. A 14% reduction would save >160K women currently alive from getting cervical cancer. Not an insignificant # by any stretch.

6. Dr. Harper clearly states if they vaccinate those girls and the protection does not last. At this point in time we don't know if it will last or if a booster will be needed. These things are being experimented vigorously by both the drug company and independent scientists.

Conclusion: I am not advocating the absolute use of HPV vaccines. It is still early and a full understanding of the ramifications (both good and bad) is not yet known. However accurate information is crucial. It is far too easy for people ignorant (in the ways of studies and science) to be led to believe something that is totally false.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #381 on: November 13, 2013, 12:45:26 PM »
That is debatable. There is a strong argument to be made that improved sanitation and medical care reduced the fatality rate and incidence of measles as much or more than the vaccine.

Vaccines are very, very far from being straightforward. They may indeed save lives. But they also may kill and maim many people in the process.

There are 2 sides to every story and pros and cons to everything. The mudslinging and attacks that have been going on in this thread are uncalled for and don't promote anything positive. If one is so confident in either side, there is no need for mudslinging and attacks. Just make your case and leave it at that. Attacks are usually a product of insecurity and ignorance.

I'm trying to do something positive by showing that vaccines are not an open shut case. Every parent needs to do their own research, weigh those pros and cons, and then make their own decision whether or not to vaccinate their child.

Polio afflicted ~35k Americans in 1954. In 1955 it was ~2.5k. In 1965 it was 65 total. Did hospitals get so much cleaner in one year? Did doctors become so much better in 12 months? No, but the Salk vaccine for Polio was introduced. Draw your own conclusions.

I was not trying to mudsling with my glass house comment, I sincerely mean that people who enjoy the benefits of something need to consider the risk of removing it. I do get passionate about this because unlike most, I speak to people on the other side of this discussion. The people in the hospital who saw hundreds and thousands dying from dreaded infections with no hope for cure.

I would strongly recommend to all those who speak to someone who believes they were harmed by vaccines (which do happen but they have become demonized and blamed for far more than they actually cause) to speak to someone who was afflicted with the disease in question. Or better yet, speak to a grandparent who remembers the polio epidemic or other such epidemics and how they lived in fear of leaving their homes. This may help even the playing field of people's emotions and allow them to actually make educated informed decisions.

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #382 on: November 13, 2013, 12:56:53 PM »
1. Gardasil is quadrivalent (protects against 4 strains)
I wrote "2 strains of cancer causing HPV." The other 2 strains it protects against, HPV types 6 and 11, do not cause cancer but can cause skin warts.

Quote
4. A routine pap smear will likely not detect the virus (only ~50% of of high-grade "pre-cancer" are detected). It has low sensitivity as a test but becomes a much better diagnostic tool when used repeatedly.
5. The study you quote is measuring the reduction of cervical cancer due to any strain (the # are much higher when looking at the strains targeted). Regardless women have a 1/147 chance of developing cervical cancer in their lifetime. That is ~1.2 million women in the USA who will get cervical cancer. A 14% reduction would save >160K women currently alive from getting cervical cancer. Not an insignificant # by any stretch.
From the CDC.
Quote
Cervical cancer used to be the leading cause of cancer death for women in the United States. However, in the past 40 years, the number of cases of cervical cancer and the number of deaths from cervical cancer have decreased significantly. This decline largely is the result of many women getting regular Pap tests, which can find cervical precancer before it turns into cancer.
Not sure where you got 1.2 million from. From that same page. "In 2010, 11,818 women in the United States were diagnosed with cervical cancer."

Quote
6. Dr. Harper clearly states if they vaccinate those girls and the protection does not last. At this point in time we don't know if it will last or if a booster will be needed. These things are being experimented vigorously by both the drug company and independent scientists.
Read the full article.  She says "data available for Gardasil shows that it lasts five years; there is no data showing that it remains effective beyond five years."

Quote
Conclusion: I am not advocating the absolute use of HPV vaccines. It is still early and a full understanding of the ramifications (both good and bad) is not yet known. However accurate information is crucial. It is far too easy for people ignorant (in the ways of studies and science) to be led to believe something that is totally false.
I am neither advocating complete abstinence from vaccines.
My point is to bring attention to the fact that there are legitimate, serious safety and efficacy concerns regarding vaccines that are being swept under the rug and attacked by the conventional medical field and people in this thread.
Quote
Every parent needs to do their own research, weigh those pros and cons, and then make their own decision whether or not to vaccinate their child.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #383 on: November 13, 2013, 03:49:47 PM »
I wrote "2 strains of cancer causing HPV." The other 2 strains it protects against, HPV types 6 and 11, do not cause cancer but can cause skin warts.

From the CDC. Not sure where you got 1.2 million from. From that same page. "In 2010, 11,818 women in the United States were diagnosed with cervical cancer."
Read the full article.  She says "data available for Gardasil shows that it lasts five years; there is no data showing that it remains effective beyond five years."
I am neither advocating complete abstinence from vaccines.
My point is to bring attention to the fact that there are legitimate, serious safety and efficacy concerns regarding vaccines that are being swept under the rug and attacked by the conventional medical field and people in this thread.
You included those same skin wart causing strains in what you claimed were the "40 that cause cancer" but not in those that the vaccine protects against.
1.2 million was the risk for all American women over a lifetime, We are saying practically the same thing. It's a pretty significant amount.
There is no data saying it will work beyond 5 years and there is likewise no data saying it will not work. My point was we don't know enough about this specific vaccine yet in that regards.

You make intelligent arguments, and I appreciate your level-headedness about the topic but what I have not seen from you yet is much in response to the amazing results that vaccines have had. I would expect someone like you to imagine some of these diseases that stole away parents, spouses and most often young children and say "thank G-d for modern medicine that we no longer have to live in fear when shaking someone's hand in the store that I may not live tomorrow". Are there problems with vaccines? Absolutely. Should we try to make them better and address some of the side effects? That's where those who have been hurt by vaccines should focus their energy.

Offline Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #384 on: November 14, 2013, 10:00:35 AM »
http://www.localjewishnews.com/2013/11/13/whooping-cough-cases-are-up-in-ohio-leading-health-officials-to-urge-up-to-date-vaccinations/
So apparently, whooping cough is going around... My question is, if someone isn't giving vaccines in general - is this the point that one would go out and vaccinate the kids, or is there reason to avoid...

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #385 on: November 14, 2013, 10:16:34 AM »
Definitely go and vaccinate your kids.
A few babies in my community have been murdered by parents of other kids who are reintroducing this terrible disease by not immunizing.

Offline Dan

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #386 on: November 14, 2013, 10:19:48 AM »
Definitely go and vaccinate your kids.
A few babies in my community have been murdered by parents of other kids who are reintroducing this terrible disease by not immunizing.
You mean death isn't preferable to the 1 in xxxxx chance of a serious side effect?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #387 on: November 14, 2013, 10:20:27 AM »
http://www.localjewishnews.com/2013/11/13/whooping-cough-cases-are-up-in-ohio-leading-health-officials-to-urge-up-to-date-vaccinations/
So apparently, whooping cough is going around... My question is, if someone isn't giving vaccines in general - is this the point that one would go out and vaccinate the kids, or is there reason to avoid...
better yet, go to YouTube and watch a video of babies struggling to breath due to pertussis and then decide whether you wanna listen to the kooks not.

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #388 on: November 14, 2013, 01:00:46 PM »
You mean death isn't preferable to the 1 in xxxxx chance of a serious side effect?
According to the latest study by the CDC, 1 in 88 children are diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Hardly a 1 in 10,000 chance.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 01:11:02 PM by jaywhy »

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #389 on: November 14, 2013, 01:06:13 PM »
According to latest study by the CDC, 1 in 88 children are diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Hardly a 1 in 10,000 chance.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html
::) Who said anything about a vaccine?