Topic Wiki

The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
116 (37.5%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
188 (60.8%)

Total Members Voted: 307

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 324401 times)

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #380 on: November 13, 2013, 12:32:36 PM »
1. Gardasil is quadrivalent (protects against 4 strains)
2. there are 30-40 types of HPV that can cause cancer but only ~15 that can cause "high-risk" cancer (the low-risk very rarely cause cancer). Amongst these type 16 & 18 (included in both vaccines) cause >70% of all cervical cancers.
3. It is unclear whether exposure prior to vaccination limits its effect, it was not studied during the initial experiments.

4. A routine pap smear will likely not detect the virus (only ~50% of of high-grade "pre-cancer" are detected). It has low sensitivity as a test but becomes a much better diagnostic tool when used repeatedly.
5. The study you quote is measuring the reduction of cervical cancer due to any strain (the # are much higher when looking at the strains targeted). Regardless women have a 1/147 chance of developing cervical cancer in their lifetime. That is ~1.2 million women in the USA who will get cervical cancer. A 14% reduction would save >160K women currently alive from getting cervical cancer. Not an insignificant # by any stretch.

6. Dr. Harper clearly states if they vaccinate those girls and the protection does not last. At this point in time we don't know if it will last or if a booster will be needed. These things are being experimented vigorously by both the drug company and independent scientists.

Conclusion: I am not advocating the absolute use of HPV vaccines. It is still early and a full understanding of the ramifications (both good and bad) is not yet known. However accurate information is crucial. It is far too easy for people ignorant (in the ways of studies and science) to be led to believe something that is totally false.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #381 on: November 13, 2013, 12:45:26 PM »
That is debatable. There is a strong argument to be made that improved sanitation and medical care reduced the fatality rate and incidence of measles as much or more than the vaccine.

Vaccines are very, very far from being straightforward. They may indeed save lives. But they also may kill and maim many people in the process.

There are 2 sides to every story and pros and cons to everything. The mudslinging and attacks that have been going on in this thread are uncalled for and don't promote anything positive. If one is so confident in either side, there is no need for mudslinging and attacks. Just make your case and leave it at that. Attacks are usually a product of insecurity and ignorance.

I'm trying to do something positive by showing that vaccines are not an open shut case. Every parent needs to do their own research, weigh those pros and cons, and then make their own decision whether or not to vaccinate their child.

Polio afflicted ~35k Americans in 1954. In 1955 it was ~2.5k. In 1965 it was 65 total. Did hospitals get so much cleaner in one year? Did doctors become so much better in 12 months? No, but the Salk vaccine for Polio was introduced. Draw your own conclusions.

I was not trying to mudsling with my glass house comment, I sincerely mean that people who enjoy the benefits of something need to consider the risk of removing it. I do get passionate about this because unlike most, I speak to people on the other side of this discussion. The people in the hospital who saw hundreds and thousands dying from dreaded infections with no hope for cure.

I would strongly recommend to all those who speak to someone who believes they were harmed by vaccines (which do happen but they have become demonized and blamed for far more than they actually cause) to speak to someone who was afflicted with the disease in question. Or better yet, speak to a grandparent who remembers the polio epidemic or other such epidemics and how they lived in fear of leaving their homes. This may help even the playing field of people's emotions and allow them to actually make educated informed decisions.

Online jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #382 on: November 13, 2013, 12:56:53 PM »
1. Gardasil is quadrivalent (protects against 4 strains)
I wrote "2 strains of cancer causing HPV." The other 2 strains it protects against, HPV types 6 and 11, do not cause cancer but can cause skin warts.

Quote
4. A routine pap smear will likely not detect the virus (only ~50% of of high-grade "pre-cancer" are detected). It has low sensitivity as a test but becomes a much better diagnostic tool when used repeatedly.
5. The study you quote is measuring the reduction of cervical cancer due to any strain (the # are much higher when looking at the strains targeted). Regardless women have a 1/147 chance of developing cervical cancer in their lifetime. That is ~1.2 million women in the USA who will get cervical cancer. A 14% reduction would save >160K women currently alive from getting cervical cancer. Not an insignificant # by any stretch.
From the CDC.
Quote
Cervical cancer used to be the leading cause of cancer death for women in the United States. However, in the past 40 years, the number of cases of cervical cancer and the number of deaths from cervical cancer have decreased significantly. This decline largely is the result of many women getting regular Pap tests, which can find cervical precancer before it turns into cancer.
Not sure where you got 1.2 million from. From that same page. "In 2010, 11,818 women in the United States were diagnosed with cervical cancer."

Quote
6. Dr. Harper clearly states if they vaccinate those girls and the protection does not last. At this point in time we don't know if it will last or if a booster will be needed. These things are being experimented vigorously by both the drug company and independent scientists.
Read the full article.  She says "data available for Gardasil shows that it lasts five years; there is no data showing that it remains effective beyond five years."

Quote
Conclusion: I am not advocating the absolute use of HPV vaccines. It is still early and a full understanding of the ramifications (both good and bad) is not yet known. However accurate information is crucial. It is far too easy for people ignorant (in the ways of studies and science) to be led to believe something that is totally false.
I am neither advocating complete abstinence from vaccines.
My point is to bring attention to the fact that there are legitimate, serious safety and efficacy concerns regarding vaccines that are being swept under the rug and attacked by the conventional medical field and people in this thread.
Quote
Every parent needs to do their own research, weigh those pros and cons, and then make their own decision whether or not to vaccinate their child.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #383 on: November 13, 2013, 03:49:47 PM »
I wrote "2 strains of cancer causing HPV." The other 2 strains it protects against, HPV types 6 and 11, do not cause cancer but can cause skin warts.

From the CDC. Not sure where you got 1.2 million from. From that same page. "In 2010, 11,818 women in the United States were diagnosed with cervical cancer."
Read the full article.  She says "data available for Gardasil shows that it lasts five years; there is no data showing that it remains effective beyond five years."
I am neither advocating complete abstinence from vaccines.
My point is to bring attention to the fact that there are legitimate, serious safety and efficacy concerns regarding vaccines that are being swept under the rug and attacked by the conventional medical field and people in this thread.
You included those same skin wart causing strains in what you claimed were the "40 that cause cancer" but not in those that the vaccine protects against.
1.2 million was the risk for all American women over a lifetime, We are saying practically the same thing. It's a pretty significant amount.
There is no data saying it will work beyond 5 years and there is likewise no data saying it will not work. My point was we don't know enough about this specific vaccine yet in that regards.

You make intelligent arguments, and I appreciate your level-headedness about the topic but what I have not seen from you yet is much in response to the amazing results that vaccines have had. I would expect someone like you to imagine some of these diseases that stole away parents, spouses and most often young children and say "thank G-d for modern medicine that we no longer have to live in fear when shaking someone's hand in the store that I may not live tomorrow". Are there problems with vaccines? Absolutely. Should we try to make them better and address some of the side effects? That's where those who have been hurt by vaccines should focus their energy.

Online Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #384 on: November 14, 2013, 10:00:35 AM »
http://www.localjewishnews.com/2013/11/13/whooping-cough-cases-are-up-in-ohio-leading-health-officials-to-urge-up-to-date-vaccinations/
So apparently, whooping cough is going around... My question is, if someone isn't giving vaccines in general - is this the point that one would go out and vaccinate the kids, or is there reason to avoid...

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #385 on: November 14, 2013, 10:16:34 AM »
Definitely go and vaccinate your kids.
A few babies in my community have been murdered by parents of other kids who are reintroducing this terrible disease by not immunizing.

Offline Dan

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #386 on: November 14, 2013, 10:19:48 AM »
Definitely go and vaccinate your kids.
A few babies in my community have been murdered by parents of other kids who are reintroducing this terrible disease by not immunizing.
You mean death isn't preferable to the 1 in xxxxx chance of a serious side effect?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #387 on: November 14, 2013, 10:20:27 AM »
http://www.localjewishnews.com/2013/11/13/whooping-cough-cases-are-up-in-ohio-leading-health-officials-to-urge-up-to-date-vaccinations/
So apparently, whooping cough is going around... My question is, if someone isn't giving vaccines in general - is this the point that one would go out and vaccinate the kids, or is there reason to avoid...
better yet, go to YouTube and watch a video of babies struggling to breath due to pertussis and then decide whether you wanna listen to the kooks not.

Online jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #388 on: November 14, 2013, 01:00:46 PM »
You mean death isn't preferable to the 1 in xxxxx chance of a serious side effect?
According to the latest study by the CDC, 1 in 88 children are diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Hardly a 1 in 10,000 chance.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 01:11:02 PM by jaywhy »

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #389 on: November 14, 2013, 01:06:13 PM »
According to latest study by the CDC, 1 in 88 children are diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Hardly a 1 in 10,000 chance.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html
::) Who said anything about a vaccine?

Offline Dan

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #390 on: November 14, 2013, 01:07:08 PM »
Lol. Let's attribute every autism case to getting vaccinated even though theres not a single legitimate study showing a correlation.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #391 on: November 14, 2013, 01:10:37 PM »
This where I bow out of this thread.

I've said what I had to say and hopefully I've made my point. Based on the PM's I've received, at least some people are listening.

Thanks to Dan and YankyDoodle for spurring me to further my own research.

Accusations of murder, I'm talking to you CBC, don't help anyone and make your arguments look weak.

You want to have an honest discussion, go do your own research and back it up with facts and sources.

People who have legitimate questions are welcome to PM me.

ETA:
I just received a phone call from someone asking me to continue posting here. So in the spirit of honest debate, I will.
Let's try to keep emotions and flaming under control.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 02:13:36 PM by jaywhy »

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #392 on: November 14, 2013, 01:23:35 PM »
This where I bow out of this thread.

I've said what I had to say and hopefully I've made my point. Based on the PM's I've received, at least some people are listening.

Thanks to Dan and YankyDoodle for spurring me to further my own research.

Accusations of murder, I'm talking to you CBC, don't help anyone and make your arguments look weak.

You want to have an honest discussion, go do your own research and back it up with facts and sources.

People who have legitimate questions are welcome to PM me.
Facts are that Pertussis was all but eradicated thanks to the Vaccine, recently, parents of children with autism are on some kind of witch hunt and have mislead many in the frum community to stop immunizing their children. This has directly led to renewed, unprecedented outbreaks of pertussis that has killed some innocent frum babies.
These are all facts.
I think it is wrong and immoral to convince others to go against conventional medical advice that has been proven to save thousands of lives.
I am not at all insensitive to parents who nebach have children with autism rc"l, (though it may come across this way.) I do not question the way Hashem controls the world and there is no excuse to create risk to other peoples children.

I have had a personal conversation with a husband of a non jewish author of a militant anti vaccination book, he admitted that this was her way of dealing with an autistic child, ie blame someone....

Online jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #393 on: November 14, 2013, 02:05:58 PM »
Lol. Let's attribute every autism case to getting vaccinated even though theres not a single legitimate study showing a correlation.
See my above post about studies being manipulated.
Obviously, I'm not going to attribute every case of autism to vaccines but the shocking rise in autism begs an answer.
1 in 10,000 in 1980 to 1 in 88 in 2008. Something must be causing it.
http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/how-common-is-autism

Online jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #394 on: November 14, 2013, 02:10:11 PM »
Facts are that Pertussis was all but eradicated thanks to the Vaccine, recently, parents of children with autism are on some kind of witch hunt and have mislead many in the frum community to stop immunizing their children. This has directly led to renewed, unprecedented outbreaks of pertussis that has killed some innocent frum babies.
These are all facts.
I think it is wrong and immoral to convince others to go against conventional medical advice that has been proven to save thousands of lives.
I am not at all insensitive to parents who nebach have children with autism rc"l, (though it may come across this way.) I do not question the way Hashem controls the world and there is no excuse to create risk to other peoples children.

I have had a personal conversation with a husband of a non jewish author of a militant anti vaccination book, he admitted that this was her way of dealing with an autistic child, ie blame someone....
Please post references with every fact.
You can't extrapolate your conversation with one person to every parent of an autistic child. That simply makes no sense.

Online Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #395 on: November 14, 2013, 02:31:09 PM »
Lol. Let's attribute every autism case to getting vaccinated even though theres not a single legitimate study showing a correlation.
You are 100% correct that there are no studies that show correlation. In addition to that, there are so many people that were fighting that fight that just backed down (which doesn't show much credibility to their case).
However:
1. AFAIK, There is no study that shows any link (including genetics) to autism, so it still can be a concern.
Lehavdil- off top of my head, if there is a pitcher that lost velocity in fastball, and there is no proof that it is an old injury (shoulder, for example), but there is no conclusion as to where the loss of velocity is coming from... Just because there proof that it was the elbow doesn't show that it's impossible...
2. There are other concerns besides autism. Example, getting the flu after flu vax, shingles after cp vax, ADD, ADHD, memory loss in future etc. where there is no proof one way or the other. There is, however, reason to research before giving a child 5 vaccines at once, or a flu shot-in-the-vein (or chicken pox vaccine). Injecting with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vaccine_ingredients should come with more limits than credit pulls...

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #396 on: November 14, 2013, 03:26:40 PM »
Please post references with every fact.
You can't extrapolate your conversation with one person to every parent of an autistic child. That simply makes no sense.
Do you disagree with the any of the facts that I posted?
Do you not agree that the vaccine all but eradicated pertussis in the 1940-1980's?
 It comes back whenever there is a "theory" that the vaccine causes harm. Babies then die.
You dont need me to post references, these facts are not even debated by the anti vaccine crowd. 

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #397 on: November 14, 2013, 03:29:44 PM »
You are 100% correct that there are no studies that show correlation. In addition to that, there are so many people that were fighting that fight that just backed down (which doesn't show much credibility to their case).
However:
1. AFAIK, There is no study that shows any link (including genetics) to autism, so it still can be a concern.
Lehavdil- off top of my head, if there is a pitcher that lost velocity in fastball, and there is no proof that it is an old injury (shoulder, for example), but there is no conclusion as to where the loss of velocity is coming from... Just because there proof that it was the elbow doesn't show that it's impossible...
2. There are other concerns besides autism. Example, getting the flu after flu vax, shingles after cp vax, ADD, ADHD, memory loss in future etc. where there is no proof one way or the other. There is, however, reason to research before giving a child 5 vaccines at once, or a flu shot-in-the-vein (or chicken pox vaccine). Injecting with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vaccine_ingredients should come with more limits than credit pulls...
Il Grant you that you are "concerned", but why is it so hard to weigh a small risk against a large risk and make a sane decision? !

Online jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #398 on: November 14, 2013, 03:34:00 PM »
Do you disagree with the any of the facts that I posted?
Do you not agree that the vaccine all but eradicated pertussis in the 1940-1980's?
 It comes back whenever there is a "theory" that the vaccine causes harm. Babies then die.
You dont need me to post references, these facts are not even debated by the anti vaccine crowd.
If you can't post references for everything you say, I won't waste my time debating you.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #399 on: November 14, 2013, 03:34:54 PM »
@jaywhy @barryg

Show me one legitimate peer-reviewed and reproduced scientific study showing that the results of any of the major vaccines causes more harm than good (yes that is a subjective measure, but I'm willing to be flexible), or even harm within the same range as the good caused by vaccines and I will personally claw the tdap vaccine that was injected into my arm not more than 20 min ago out with my bare hands.

Seriously speaking you cannot scientifically blame these health conditions on vaccines any more than you can blame them on cell phones, extra radiation, preservatives in food products, poorer diets or any of 1000 other changes that have occurred in the last 10-50 years!