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The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
115 (37.5%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
187 (60.9%)

Total Members Voted: 305

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 307142 times)

Offline henche

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #700 on: April 03, 2014, 07:58:31 AM »
I should add that 3 in our family had the shot and three did not. Everyone was flu free this year. So there you have it proof positive it does not matter if you get the shot or not.  :)

Actually, it proves that even vaccinating half your family can save the whole family from the flu. That's how strong it is.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #701 on: April 03, 2014, 07:59:18 AM »
I should add that 3 in our family had the shot and three did not. Everyone was flu free this year. So there you have it proof positive it does not matter if you get the shot or not.  :)
Well with such a large sample size, I guess you must be right :P

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #702 on: April 03, 2014, 08:01:01 AM »
Actually, it proves that even vaccinating half your family can save the whole family from the flu. That's how strong it is.
Alternatively it can prove that not getting the flu has a 50% chance of causing you to get the flu shot (wait did they not get the flu before or after they did or didn't get vaccinated? I'm a bit confused now, what caused what? ???),

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #703 on: April 03, 2014, 09:46:23 AM »
they were the same as the rest of the population. Average. You tell me!
Not sure if you realize it but comments like this hurt your arguments.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #704 on: April 03, 2014, 07:05:36 PM »
By a fellow DDFer...

http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=29712&alias=anti-vaccine-calls-and-halacha
A response:

A RESPONSE TO RABBI SHOLOM SHUCHAT'S MARCH 30, 2014 COL ARTICLE CONCERNING THE REBBE'S VIEWS ON VACCINATIONS

By Yaakov Shapiro

THE ARTICLE
http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=29712&alias=anti-vaccine-calls-and-halacha

THE RESPONSE
Dear Readers,

While Rabbi Shuchat is correct that Chasidim should be interested in obtaining the Rebbe’s view on any given topic, including medical concerns, in the hope that there is clear guidance on the matter, it is my assertion that in this regard there is more to the discussion than he presents.

Rabbi Shuchat quotes two letters from the Rebbe featured in the Kehos book, Healthy in Mind, Body and Spirit volume 2, chapter 11, in support of vaccinations, as well as two letters from volume 1, chapter 4, in which the Rebbe speaks of Torah’s instruction to follow a doctor’s orders.

Let us address the letters from volume 1, chapter 4, first.

The letters in that chapter, as evident to any reader, are extremely general and vague; they do not reveal the natures of the patients’ maladies or of their hesitations in following their doctors’ advice.

Rather, the letters in that chapter revolve around five general themes:

1) G-d Himself demands that a person not procrastinate in seeking out a doctor’s advice nor in following it

2) One should not rely on Torah and mitzvos alone to heal oneself

3) General fears about the future of one’s health should not paralyze a person from implementing their doctor’s instructions

4) One should not put their own self-diagnosis and opinions on how to heal above their doctor’s

5) One should not minimize the importance of the body’s health on account of one’s focus on spirituality

These themes have no bearing on the modern discussion about vaccinations in particular, as shall now be demonstrated.

If there were any letter in that chapter that Shuchat could better have quoted, it is the (undated and un-sourced) letter found on page 43:

“…A person may well have his doubts about the efficacy of a drug prescribed by his physician. Will he refuse to take it until he has been able to attend medical school and learn all that his doctor has learned during his lifetime of study and experience? Will he not rely on the authority of the medical specialist?

If he has doubts about the expertise of one doctor, he can obtain a second opinion, and a third; but when all agree that he needs a particular medicine or a prescribed regimen, would he refuse to take that expert advice even if he still has “strong doubts” about it?”

On the surface, this letter would appear to support Shuchat’s contention, and that expressed by numerous commenters on his article, that the anti-vaccination movement should stop being defiant and accept the collective word of the medical establishment.

But this is not the case at all, and certainly not when it comes to the discussion of vaccinations, for:

a) The nature of the person’s ailment, the exact medicine prescribed, and the psychological-emotional attitude of the person the Rebbe is writing to, are not revealed at all in the letter. We are certainly not able to determine if the medicine in question was at that time under scrutiny for possible dangerous side effects. And if there is anything implied by the letter, it is that this person was offering the Rebbe nothing more than emotional “strong doubts,” which the Rebbe is telling the person to put to rest in the face of his doctor’s expertise.

b) The Rebbe speaks of a case where “all doctor’s agree” on a certain course of action. In the case of vaccinations, there is hardly consensus among doctors; there is only, perhaps, consensus among the pharmaceutical companies who produce and sell them.

c) The Rebbe is clearly speaking of a doctor’s expertise based on extensive schooling and practice to DIAGNOSE and PRESCRIBE. This has no bearing on the discussion of vaccinations, which are administered to HEALTHY children – not because the doctor has “learned” about them over years of experience, but, again, because the pharmaceutical companies “vouch” for their safety, necessity and effectiveness.

Which brings us to our discussion of the Rebbe’s views on vaccinations in particular:

Let us begin this part of our discussion with another letter from Healthy in Mind, Body and Spirit, vol.2, page 129, where, in 1960, the Rebbe warns against the over-use of antibiotics, based on new medical research that came to light at that time.

The Rebbe, there, says specifically NOT TO RELY SOLELY ON YOUR DOCTOR – and I quote:

“You are surely aware that in the United States the enthusiasm and ardor to give antibiotics has dampened, and doctors are beginning to have serious reservations about their excessive use...

…It would be particularly beneficial for you to encourage him [the doctor] to check this out specifically with those who have been actively researching this matter, since by and large practicing doctors do not have too much time for research. [This is] particularly so, since the drug companies that manufacture these antibiotics are not at all interested in such research, as can readily be understood, [as it would lower their sales, etc.]."

The Rebbe clearly acknowledges that doctors, while they are well-meaning, are not to be CATEGORICALLY relied upon for questions relating to medical research, as they are generally too consumed by their field to analyze such research properly, and that the drug companies certainly cannot be relied upon to provide accurate information either to the public or to the doctors themselves.

Add to this the fact that in regard to medical doctors, their license precludes them from contradicting what they have been taught in medical school.

[Parenthetically, the fact that the collective medical establishment laughed at the “alternative health” community for decades about their reservations about antibiotic use, should alone give pause to Shuchat. As is now well-known, that same medical establishment now admits the damage caused by its over-use of antibiotics – well past 1960, when the Rebbe penned the above letter]

As far as the handful of letters in that same book, by which Shuchat invokes the Rebbe’s ‘categorical’ support of the use of vaccinations, the Rebbe is speaking about only one type of vaccine, and in the 1950s. Thus, one cannot extrapolate from there that the Rebbe would have supported all the vaccines that are administered today, 60 years later, and in the multiple combinations and at the younger and younger ages that they are now given.

Rabbi Groner, one of the Rebbe’s secretaries, whom I consulted years ago on the matter, claimed that the Rebbe supported the use of vaccines through the 1980s. HOWEVER, being that all the research about the potential dangers of vaccines only came to public awareness AFTER GIMMEL TAMMUZ, we cannot assume the Rebbe himself would have maintained his earlier stance. The Rebbe was very conservative when it came to medicine (see Healthy in Mind, Body and Spirit, vol 2, page 22, footnote 4, in the name of one of the Rebbe’s secretaries), and we cannot presume to know that he would have continued to endorse vaccines after evidence of their dangers came to light.

And if you'll argue that the Rebbe would never change his mind on any matter (playing the "ruach hakodesh card"), I can only point you back to the letter above about antibiotics, and ask:

Did the Rebbe warn against antibiotics in the 1950s, before NEW research about their dangers came to light in 1960?

Not that we know of.

As far as disinformation in this very community: when the mumps outbreak occurred in Crown Heights a number of years back, three doctors of the community sent out a signed letter to all the schools blaming the outbreak on unvaccinated children (I received the letter from my son’s pre-school class at one of the two main boys schools here). The letter first stated that the disease was taking root and "gaining velocity" (sic) in the unvaccinated kids, and then spreading even to the vaccinated kids. But it then added that perhaps the mumps epidemic was a new strain which nobody was vaccinated against to begin with!

In other words, they first created panic and discord, blaming the unvaccinated kids, and then they noted that perhaps the vaccines were ineffective.

[By the way, if they were suggesting some kind of new strain had somehow mutated, like a “super-bug” which develops due to over-use of antibiotics, one must wonder where such a mutation would more likely to occur, in an unvaccinated person or a vaccinated one?]

A few weeks later, there was an outrage in the comments on COL when they published a headline that one local doctor had supposedly asked schools to no longer accept new kids that were unvaccinated. Without getting into the entire debate that ensued, which pitted neighbors and friends against each other, there was never a report that just a few weeks later, that very same doctor's office posted a notice on its front desk – which I saw with my own two eyes – that the TRUE cause of the outbreak was that the mumps vaccine wears off after a certain number of years, and that one must get another dose when one reaches teenage-hood.

Guess what! According to reports at the time, the mumps outbreak began amongst the VACCINATED TEENAGE BOYS of Crown Heights, not the unvaccinated kindergarteners.

The bottom line is this: there is in fact a lot of disinformation out there about vaccines, even from the medical establishment, even from the well-meaning doctors within our own community.

But to draw lines in the sand between members of our community, accusing one side of betraying the Rebbe, and supporting such an accusation by surgically extracting pithy quotes from letters that are taken out of context and not properly analyzed, is nothing short of sinful.

The vaccination-safety question is far from settled, even among doctors.

And it should be noted that while the pro-vaccine camp harps on the issue of autism and the pharmaceutical companies’ claims that they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that autism does not result from vaccines, the fact of the matter is that this is not just about autism. There are numerous other harmful side effects caused by vaccines that do not get so much publicity. GO AND LEARN!

A few personal cases in point:

1) A close family friend’s nephew had his child given the chicken pox vaccine. The next day the child developed a tremendous fever, resulting in complications that eventually led to brain death.

2) Another close friend used to poke fun at me for not vaccinating my children. But when it came time to sending my first child to school, he offered to put me in touch with a lawyer to help me cut through any objections the school might raise. Why? Because he and his wife had decided to hold off on vaccines for their son, and then after he was a few years old, when the child received his first dose of multiple vaccines, he developed severe eczema the following day, and at the time of our discussion had been suffering with it for months.

3) My wife’s grandmother recently got her flu vaccine. Shortly afterwards she developed Bells Palsy on her face. When she went to the doctor, the nurse asked her if she had recently received a flu shot. When she replied that she had, the nurse responded: “Well, that explains it.”

Think about it: Every medicine has a long list of potential side effects. But we are supposed to believe that vaccines – ALL OF THEM – are perfectly safe, and not only for adults, but for ALL newborn children?!

All parents, according to halachah, are obligated to guard their children’s health in the best way they know how. Some parents believe that the risks of immunizing are small compared to the risks of the diseases they prevent. Others believe the risks of those diseases are small compared to the risks of injecting known toxins into a healthy child. That we must choose one set of risks over the other is one of the many challenges G-d sends us in this formidable task called “parenthood.”

The decisions parents face in order to protect their children are painful and difficult. But we must stop demonizing those parents who make decisions different than our own.

[As a footnote, Shuchat’s citation of one extremely vague letter of the Rebbe about an unnamed form of psychic healing, and his application of it equally to ALL forms of non-Western, “alternative healing methods,” reveals a gross ignorance of his subject]
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #705 on: April 03, 2014, 07:22:40 PM »
The decisions parents face in order to protect their children are painful and difficult. But we must stop demonizing those parents who make decisions different than our own.
Would this include parents that reject all medical treatment for their children?
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Offline jaywhy

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #706 on: April 03, 2014, 08:11:30 PM »
@JJ, excellent article. Thanks for posting.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #707 on: April 03, 2014, 08:44:22 PM »
@JJ (really @Yaacov Shapiro)

Well written article but I dislike it just as much as the Shuchat article. Mostly because everyone has such a hard time seeing the other side that they end up throwing garbage into their article mucking the whole thing up. If he would have stuck to the few factual claims he has and ended with his last couple of paragraphs about parents trying to do their best I would have respected his position. When I have time I will retort to the numerous false claims and irrelevant info  in his article.

Would this include parents that reject all medical treatment for their children?
Judaism has a very strong belief in health and life. If something is clearly going to be a cause in someone's death or illness it is not permitted according to Judaism. Your question is a difficult dilemma for medicine vis-a-vis some other religions.

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #708 on: April 04, 2014, 01:42:34 AM »
If you know the answer why do u ask ?
I don't know the answer.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Barryg

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #709 on: April 04, 2014, 02:09:31 AM »
JJ did a nice job
Why do you shoot from the hip hiding behind the claim that you wiil prove him wrong when "you have time"

 I switched to a Doc who who no longer belives in idol warship of vaccines, then we noticed the blind Quack followers of CDC "have no time" to explain their position, the common sence Doctor can relax & explain in detail maybe b/c he stands on solid ground
When writing a post on a forum like this one, YankyDoodle + many others have taken our time to respond. Each time we post, not only do we try to write in proper English, so that everyone can understand. there also has to be time to comb through what was said, and possibly find links or quotes with factual claims (or doctors' opinions). Being that we have busy lives + a side job to follow and post on ddf, when it comes to a discussion like this one, that no-one here is or should be making rash decisions, we allow as much time as is needed to respond. (This isn't one of those quick-no blinking debates.) In addition, YankyDoodle has in the past responded and didn't use as an excuse to get out of something. Remember, it is Pesach season and Erev Shabbos.
@ThinkTwice  I think I agree with some/most of your points and it seems that you can bring a lot of knowledge into this and other ddf threads. However, some responses so far have been extremely unclear and hard to understand. Besides for your points making sense to you, it would be great if they were written with more clarity as other need to understand as well.
Also, please remember that besides for 2 ppl (who in the above poll got a nasal vaccine, and are the only two in two years) we all get along. We are trying to come out with some clarity, on a very unclear topic. Now one of the two is Dan, I wonder who the second is... ...

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #710 on: April 04, 2014, 11:05:46 AM »
JJ did a nice job
Why do you shoot from the hip hiding behind the claim that you wiil prove him wrong when "you have time"

 I switched to a Doc who who no longer belives in idol warship of vaccines, then we noticed the blind Quack followers of CDC "have no time" to explain their position, the common sence Doctor can relax & explain in detail maybe b/c he stands on solid ground
Is there something that you don't understand about why the CDC recommends vaccinations?
Post your questions here, someone will explain it to you, very slowly.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #711 on: April 04, 2014, 11:52:11 AM »
Was this posted here yet?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/02/25/peds.2013-2365

Has anyone here who is pro vaccination ever convinced someone who was anti?

In all discussions I've seen -online, in print, in person - no amount of reason, emotion or myth debunking seems to make even the slightest impact. 
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Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #712 on: April 04, 2014, 12:43:56 PM »
@ Barryg thank you for your reply.
JJ did a nice job
Why do you shoot from the hip hiding behind the claim that you wiil prove him wrong when "you have time"

 I switched to a Doc who who no longer belives in idol warship of vaccines, then we noticed the blind Quack followers of CDC "have no time" to explain their position, the common sence Doctor can relax & explain in detail maybe b/c he stands on solid ground
I started writing a response that was respectful and reasoned, but I just couldn't. These "common sence (sic) doctors" to which you refer do not have "solid ground" to stand on. Is it possible that they are concerned for patient safety? Absolutely! Are parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids, evil monstors? By and large, no. But anyone who argues that they have a more solid scientific ground to stand on is delusional. That doesn't mean they cannot possibly be correct, but scientific method has not borne that out. They choose to err on the side of caution (in their opinion) against vaccination.

Yet here you are, ranting about sick nuts, and quack followers of idol worship... It's disturbing, ignorant and untrue. So as long as we're clear about who's shooting from the hip.

I have read every one of the 717 posts on this topic in this thread, have you read more than 40? I have responded to (nearly) every argument put forward by anti-vaccination proponents in clear easy to understand English with sources (as Barryg mentioned as well). Whether they agreed with my logic or not is a different story. I have even responded to your attempts at posts with accurate rebuttals (and some humor) and you have yet to respond cognizantly to one.

BTW JJ did not write the article he simply posted it.

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #713 on: April 04, 2014, 01:19:58 PM »
A response:

A RESPONSE TO RABBI SHOLOM SHUCHAT'S MARCH 30, 2014 COL ARTICLE CONCERNING THE REBBE'S VIEWS ON VACCINATIONS

By Yaakov Shapiro

THE ARTICLE
http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=29712&alias=anti-vaccine-calls-and-halacha

THE RESPONSE
Dear Readers,

While Rabbi Shuchat is correct that Chasidim should be interested in obtaining the Rebbe’s view on any given topic, including medical concerns, in the hope that there is clear guidance on the matter, it is my assertion that in this regard there is more to the discussion than he presents. Agreed

redacted

b) The Rebbe speaks of a case where “all doctor’s agree” on a certain course of action. In the case of vaccinations, there is hardly consensus among doctors; there is only, perhaps, consensus among the pharmaceutical companies who produce and sell them.

Untrue, mentioning the pharmaceutical companies is a cheap shot to make the doctors look like they all take bribes from big pharma. The large majority of doctors are in agreement to an extent that I believe the Rebbe (and most everybody) would agree. Whether you choose to trust them is a different story but the large majority agree to the extent of being able to say "all" IMO.

c) The Rebbe is clearly speaking of a doctor’s expertise based on extensive schooling and practice to DIAGNOSE and PRESCRIBE. This has no bearing on the discussion of vaccinations, which are administered to HEALTHY children – not because the doctor has “learned” about them over years of experience, but, again, because the pharmaceutical companies “vouch” for their safety, necessity and effectiveness.

Half-true point that he again mucked up. Yes, most doctors are not particularly expert in vaccinations (although expert is a relative term, they know a hell of a lot more about them than anybody reading this article). However their trust in them has nothing to do with pharmaceutical companies and everything to do with 1) actual peer-reviewed research article (plenty done by people not working for big pharma). 2) the fact that it passes their subjective "eye test" i.e. their actual experiences with vaccines and the associations that they see in conjunction with it. 3) The positive health outcomes that occur as a result of the vaccines

Which brings us to our discussion of the Rebbe’s views on vaccinations in particular:

Let us begin this part of our discussion with another letter from Healthy in Mind, Body and Spirit, vol.2, page 129, where, in 1960, the Rebbe warns against the over-use of antibiotics, based on new medical research that came to light at that time.

The Rebbe, there, says specifically NOT TO RELY SOLELY ON YOUR DOCTOR – and I quote:

“You are surely aware that in the United States the enthusiasm and ardor to give antibiotics has dampened, and doctors are beginning to have serious reservations about their excessive use...

…It would be particularly beneficial for you to encourage him [the doctor] to check this out specifically with those who have been actively researching this matter, since by and large practicing doctors do not have too much time for research. [This is] particularly so, since the drug companies that manufacture these antibiotics are not at all interested in such research, as can readily be understood, [as it would lower their sales, etc.]."

The Rebbe clearly acknowledges that doctors, while they are well-meaning, are not to be CATEGORICALLY relied upon for questions relating to medical research, as they are generally too consumed by their field to analyze such research properly, and that the drug companies certainly cannot be relied upon to provide accurate information either to the public or to the doctors themselves.

The Rebbe says to encourage the individual doctor to look into current research...that is awfully clear that 1) the doctor should be the one to make final assessment (implication being that a layman cannot make the best decision) and 2) that current research should be used.

Add to this the fact that in regard to medical doctors, their license precludes them from contradicting what they have been taught in medical school.

BS, again trying to make people believe that there is a giant conspiracy.

[Parenthetically, the fact that the collective medical establishment laughed at the “alternative health” community for decades about their reservations about antibiotic use, should alone give pause to Shuchat. As is now well-known, that same medical establishment now admits the damage caused by its over-use of antibiotics – well past 1960, when the Rebbe penned the above letter]

Where is it documented that the ME (medical establishment) "laughed" at the idea? Besides their is a huge difference between these cases. The argument against antibiotic use is that we can run out of them/bacteria can develop into superbugs. Regardless society would be no worse off with overuse than without them at all. Vaccinations are far different if you are arguing that they cause diseases in otherwise healthy kids, I can assure you doctors are not laughing about that. Instead they researched it extensively, and came to a resounding conclusion that it is overwhelmingly beneficial.

As far as the handful of letters in that same book, by which Shuchat invokes the Rebbe’s ‘categorical’ support of the use of vaccinations, the Rebbe is speaking about only one type of vaccine, and in the 1950s. Thus, one cannot extrapolate from there that the Rebbe would have supported all the vaccines that are administered today, 60 years later, and in the multiple combinations and at the younger and younger ages that they are now given.

True, but one can extrapolate that the Rebbe generally supported the concept of using vaccines to eradicate or minimize the chance of the deadly disease they fight. Again you gotta use your brain to determine what makes the most sense for your family needs and situation.

Rabbi Groner, one of the Rebbe’s secretaries, whom I consulted years ago on the matter, claimed that the Rebbe supported the use of vaccines through the 1980s. HOWEVER, being that all the research about the potential dangers of vaccines only came to public awareness AFTER GIMMEL TAMMUZ, we cannot assume the Rebbe himself would have maintained his earlier stance. The Rebbe was very conservative when it came to medicine (see Healthy in Mind, Body and Spirit, vol 2, page 22, footnote 4, in the name of one of the Rebbe’s secretaries), and we cannot presume to know that he would have continued to endorse vaccines after evidence of their dangers came to light.

Evidence of their dangers? Again, if his claim is that it is possible that the Rebbe would not support vaccines now, I can accept that. I don't agree, but I can accept it. But he makes gross claims without backing any of them up! Believe me, there was always the possibility of risk with the vaccines, even in the 1950's. Do you think the Rebbe didn;t consider that there might possibly be adverse side effects 20 or 30 years down the line? Of course he did! But that was a risk worth taking for the amazing ability to prevent tens of thousands of sure deaths!

And if you'll argue that the Rebbe would never change his mind on any matter (playing the "ruach hakodesh card"), I can only point you back to the letter above about antibiotics, and ask:

Did the Rebbe warn against antibiotics in the 1950s, before NEW research about their dangers came to light in 1960?

Not that we know of.

I don't have a problem with this line of reasoning per se, except that I would bet that a significant percentage of the non vaccinators also don't use ultrasounds because the Rebbe expressed concern about them when they first came out. Well guess what, they are safe, and they save lives... Of course the Rebbe would support them now!

As far as disinformation in this very community: when the mumps outbreak occurred in Crown Heights a number of years back, three doctors of the community sent out a signed letter to all the schools blaming the outbreak on unvaccinated children (I received the letter from my son’s pre-school class at one of the two main boys schools here). The letter first stated that the disease was taking root and "gaining velocity" (sic) in the unvaccinated kids, and then spreading even to the vaccinated kids. But it then added that perhaps the mumps epidemic was a new strain which nobody was vaccinated against to begin with!

Well, what was the result? Was it a new strain? Don't leave us in the dark.

In other words, they first created panic and discord, blaming the unvaccinated kids, and then they noted that perhaps the vaccines were ineffective.

[By the way, if they were suggesting some kind of new strain had somehow mutated, like a “super-bug” which develops due to over-use of antibiotics, one must wonder where such a mutation would more likely to occur, in an unvaccinated person or a vaccinated one?]

False. Super-bugs mutate when they are existing in people and replicating. they cannot replicate in people that are immune to them. this generally just shows a level of ignorance and a clear bias against vaccinations.

A few weeks later, there was an outrage in the comments on COL when they published a headline that one local doctor had supposedly asked schools to no longer accept new kids that were unvaccinated. Without getting into the entire debate that ensued, which pitted neighbors and friends against each other, there was never a report that just a few weeks later, that very same doctor's office posted a notice on its front desk – which I saw with my own two eyes – that the TRUE cause of the outbreak was that the mumps vaccine wears off after a certain number of years, and that one must get another dose when one reaches teenage-hood.

I don't know when the outbreak occurred relative to the knowledge that booster shots are needed. Again no one is arguing that vaccines are perfect, but a booster again is a small price to pay to avoid terrible diseases.

Guess what! According to reports at the time, the mumps outbreak began amongst the VACCINATED TEENAGE BOYS of Crown Heights, not the unvaccinated kindergarteners.

Proof? Do we know that the teenage boys were vaccinated? Someone out there is carrying the disease and (whether you believe in vaccinations or not, you should be able to recognize that unvaccinated individuals are at far greater risk of contracting one of the diseases. In such a way they may pass it on to a vaccinated child who is in close company with him (again vaccines aren't perfect! That's why we need more of the population to create a greater herd immunity.

The bottom line is this: there is in fact a lot of disinformation out there about vaccines, even from the medical establishment, even from the well-meaning doctors within our own community.

But to draw lines in the sand between members of our community, accusing one side of betraying the Rebbe, and supporting such an accusation by surgically extracting pithy quotes from letters that are taken out of context and not properly analyzed, is nothing short of sinful.

The vaccination-safety question is far from settled, even among doctors.

And it should be noted that while the pro-vaccine camp harps on the issue of autism and the pharmaceutical companies’ claims that they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that autism does not result from vaccines, the fact of the matter is that this is not just about autism. There are numerous other harmful side effects caused by vaccines that do not get so much publicity. GO AND LEARN!

That warrant the risk of these diseases becoming an epidemic again? Like what?

A few personal cases in point:

1) A close family friend’s nephew had his child given the chicken pox vaccine. The next day the child developed a tremendous fever, resulting in complications that eventually led to brain death.

2) Another close friend used to poke fun at me for not vaccinating my children. But when it came time to sending my first child to school, he offered to put me in touch with a lawyer to help me cut through any objections the school might raise. Why? Because he and his wife had decided to hold off on vaccines for their son, and then after he was a few years old, when the child received his first dose of multiple vaccines, he developed severe eczema the following day, and at the time of our discussion had been suffering with it for months.

3) My wife’s grandmother recently got her flu vaccine. Shortly afterwards she developed Bells Palsy on her face. When she went to the doctor, the nurse asked her if she had recently received a flu shot. When she replied that she had, the nurse responded: “Well, that explains it.”

Personal cases are great for garnering sympathy but are not an effective way to measure the success or risk of a treatment. I know people that die from all sorts of treatments and surgeries, doesn't make them bad medicine (just imperfect). These cases may not be related to the vaccine. Even if they are related, the risks of not vaccinating could still outweigh the "risks" of vaccinating (although for the family of the hurt individual it may not feel that way). Finally, if you are so sure that there is a clear direct caual relationship between vaccines and terrible injury, design a study and I will personally carry it out, to test the hypothesis (as would any number of other qualified people).

If we are going to start bringing personal cases up, how about watching this video and imagining that this was your baby:
This is one disease (pertussis aka whooping cough) that hundreds of thousands of babies were saved from (each year!!) thanks to just one vaccine!


Think about it: Every medicine has a long list of potential side effects. But we are supposed to believe that vaccines – ALL OF THEM – are perfectly safe, and not only for adults, but for ALL newborn children?!

All parents, according to halachah, are obligated to guard their children’s health in the best way they know how. Some parents believe that the risks of immunizing are small compared to the risks of the diseases they prevent. Others believe the risks of those diseases are small compared to the risks of injecting known toxins into a healthy child. That we must choose one set of risks over the other is one of the many challenges G-d sends us in this formidable task called “parenthood.”

The decisions parents face in order to protect their children are painful and difficult. But we must stop demonizing those parents who make decisions different than our own.

If there is evidence supporting them. And if there is no harm that can result to others. If people are smoking near my child, you can be absolutely sure that I will either move her away or ask the person to stop.

[As a footnote, Shuchat’s citation of one extremely vague letter of the Rebbe about an unnamed form of psychic healing, and his application of it equally to ALL forms of non-Western, “alternative healing methods,” reveals a gross ignorance of his subject]

Yup, R. Shuchat's letter was not very well written and just like this letter came in with too strong of a bias.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 04:11:50 PM by YankyDoodle »

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #714 on: April 07, 2014, 04:42:19 PM »
It's gotten awfully quiet around here...  ::)
Here's an article that's worth reading if you have a moment.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/06/anti-vaccine-movement-is-giving-diseases-a-2nd-life/7007955/

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #715 on: April 07, 2014, 04:49:01 PM »

It's gotten awfully quiet around here...  ::)
Here's an article that's worth reading if you have a moment.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/06/anti-vaccine-movement-is-giving-diseases-a-2nd-life/7007955/

Posters are probably sick with the flu.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #716 on: April 07, 2014, 04:58:33 PM »
It's gotten awfully quiet around here...  ::)

Especially after you were taken to task for not responding IMMEDIATELY.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #717 on: April 07, 2014, 05:19:47 PM »
Especially after you were taken to task for not responding IMMEDIATELY.
I would ThinkTwice before making a statement like that!

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #718 on: April 07, 2014, 05:38:07 PM »
It's gotten awfully quiet around here...  ::)
Here's an article that's worth reading if you have a moment.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/06/anti-vaccine-movement-is-giving-diseases-a-2nd-life/7007955/
+1 great article should be wikied!

Offline thaber

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #719 on: April 09, 2014, 01:19:57 AM »