Topic Wiki

The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
115 (37.5%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
187 (60.9%)

Total Members Voted: 305

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 307152 times)

Offline Chaikel

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #780 on: April 10, 2014, 11:05:57 AM »
That is highly debatable.
What is?
But whether it is true or not, the fact that you consider natural selection wiping out a large portion of the population a good thing is very disturbing.
Natural selection isn't a murder weapon. It's a natural effect. I'm no more trying to kill someone than a hospital is
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Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #781 on: April 10, 2014, 11:06:44 AM »
That's why I'm trying to be as open as I can. Vaccines are not bad. They save millions of lives. My point is not proving their bad, but that there can be some stuff which has caused genetic mutations resulting in things like autism,ADHD, etc.

Once again, idk a lot about things. I'm just in the beginning stages of my research. FROM WHAT IVE HEARD, it makes sense to do research. Understandably, the lipitor thing wasn't relavent but from my point of view, it furthered the drive for money and POSSIBLE misinterpratations of results.
Vaccines save millions of lives. They have never been shown to cause any of the awful diseases that have been mentioned. Many of them have been specifically tested and debunked (i.e. autism). Many diseases are rising in incidence. Lets use our energy to find the real culprits and stop intimating that vaccines may still be at fault. Either prove it or move on.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #782 on: April 10, 2014, 11:08:02 AM »
That's why I'm trying to be as open as I can. Vaccines are not bad. They save millions of lives. My point is not proving their bad, but that there can be some stuff which has caused genetic mutations resulting in things like autism,ADHD, etc.

Once again, idk a lot about things. I'm just in the beginning stages of my research. FROM WHAT IVE HEARD, it makes sense to do research. Understandably, the lipitor thing wasn't relavent but from my point of view, it furthered the drive for money and POSSIBLE misinterpratations of results.

You can see on this very thread that intelligent, well meaning people can take their research and come to dangerous conclusions. There has been overwhelming evidence posted to prove  the safety, effectiveness and necessity of vaccines. - including the lack of causation, or even correlation, to autism and adhd and vaccines. Yet, some are dead against them without a shred of evidence.

Education and knowledge cannot be overvalued, but get your education from the right place.
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Offline jaywhy

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #783 on: April 10, 2014, 11:09:13 AM »
Everything about how you are using them is BS. the overwhelming majority of doctors recommended 7-UP as a diet supplement? Did they also do hundreds of studies to prove that cigarettes were safe? Every point you made was deceitful (if not by you then by the website that you copied it from) and incorrect. The only accurate point is that medicine and science is always a work in progress. It has always found a way to correct itself when errors were found. Vaccines have been tested for a long time and they have consistently proven to be an effective method that has saved millions of lives with limited risk. If this were ever proven to be otherwise, medicine would evolve like it always does.
Fair enough. You can take out 7-Up, formula, and sugar.

But, cigarettes, cocaine, heroin, and DDT, are all things which were recommended by doctors at their time but later shown to very harmful to human health. Not sure what you find deceitful about that.

Offline gavhaller

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #784 on: April 10, 2014, 11:10:30 AM »
Are there doctors who are more trigger happy? Always! Find a good one that you are comfortable with. Is it possible he was concerned about a greater risk? Possibly. Why didn't you go for a second opinion and make the best decision for you? Regardless this has absolutely nothing to do with the vaccine discussion. Vaccines are not going to benefit almost any doctor financially and it is highly regulated (unlike a single cyst removal procedure).
I think if you thought about it for a moment you can see that it is relevant. Its the idea that someone is coming out ahead and not just for the sake of healing-as there are other ways to heal without causing lots of money to be spent.
Not everything is coming out ahead, but since we all have already discussed and agree that the pharmaceutical/medical category is extremely profitable, it makes to check before you do things.

Offline Chaikel

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #785 on: April 10, 2014, 11:12:23 AM »
Fair enough. You can take out 7-Up, formula, and sugar.

But, cigarettes, cocaine, heroin, and DDT, are all things which were recommended by doctors at their time but later shown to very harmful to human health. Not sure what you find deceitful about that.
And they were recommended by alternative medicine far before, and for far longer than they were by western medicine. What's your point?

Cigarettes only became a part of western medicine after it was proven to provide medical bennefits. In fact there are still many medical bennefits associated with smoking, its just that the negative outweighs the positve. Unlike vaccines
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 11:16:00 AM by Chaikel »
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Offline gavhaller

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #786 on: April 10, 2014, 11:12:31 AM »
You can see on this very thread that intelligent, well meaning people can take their research and come to dangerous conclusions. There has been overwhelming evidence posted to prove  the safety, effectiveness and necessity of vaccines. - including the lack of causation, or even correlation, to autism and adhd and vaccines. Yet, some are dead against them without a shred of evidence.

Education and knowledge cannot be overvalued, but get your education from the right place.
I agree. That's why I didn't specify where or how to go about it. Its just my opinion and something I would do. Zeh hu

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #787 on: April 10, 2014, 11:22:40 AM »
Not sure if you're serious but I did not blow you off, in fact I responded to every "study" that you quoted and asked for access to the other studies that you quoted because I could not view them. I'm still waiting for those full studies.

As I said those last studies that you quoted are not studies or have no mention of vaccines. Either quote me something from the study or move on.

Regarding the thimerosal studies, like I mentioned I could not view them and asked you for access to them (because you obviously studied them prior to posting  ::)) You can question anything you like, but you better have some proof before signing death sentences for hundreds of thousands of people. Do you really want everyone to stop using vaccines entirely? Yes, I (as well as many respected researchers) have considered the possible risks of aluminum and have concluded that it is a necessary adjuvant for vaccines that does not appear to increase the risk of morbidity and mortality in the patients.

Research has been done regarding vaccine safety. Hundreds of them on millions of children. No one wants parents to blindly follow the doctors, but would you rather them blindly follow conspiracy theorists (like you apparently do)?
I am a father. I choose to vaccinate my daughter. Do you think that I don't ask the same questions you do? Believe me I do as does every other doctor with children. We came to the conclusion that we would rather trust what we see with the studies than try to bury our head in the sand and blame illnesses on the closest scapegoat.
You won't respond to any of the studies because you can't view the entire thing?
Fair enough. I respect your dedication to scientific method. Still a little but of a blowoff :P

I have never said anywhere in this thread that people should stop using vaccines. I do think people should question the frequency, necessity, and effectiveness of all the vaccines on the CDC schedule.
I'd hardly consider that a death sentence of hundreds of thousands.


Offline jaywhy

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #788 on: April 10, 2014, 11:28:05 AM »
And they were recommended by alternative medicine far before, and for far longer than they were by western medicine. What's your point?
I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. Source?

Quote
Cigarettes only became a part of western medicine after it was proven to provide medical bennefits. In fact there are still many medical bennefits associated with smoking, its just that the negative outweighs the positve. Unlike vaccines
Again, source?

My point by posting those graphics was to remind us how something can from being recommended by doctors to being shown to be hazardous to human health. Nothing more.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #789 on: April 10, 2014, 11:29:45 AM »
You won't respond to any of the studies because you can't view the entire thing?
Fair enough. I respect your dedication to scientific method. Still a little but of a blowoff :P

I have never said anywhere in this thread that people should stop using vaccines. I do think people should question the frequency, necessity, and effectiveness of all the vaccines on the CDC schedule.
I'd hardly consider that a death sentence of hundreds of thousands.
Too many people have the same mindset as you, some are smart enough to question while still taking the vaccines. Others unfortunately are not and are putting their lives and their acquaintances lives in danger. I hope you are of the former.

I read through as much of every single study that you presented as I had access to. This includes numerous full articles to which I responded. I gave my thoughts on the ones which I did not have access to. I think it is telling that you are basing your beliefs on an abstract or more precisely a website from someone who has no real credentials who simply quoted said study. Who is the real blowoff? You (and others) say that you are interested in the truth and that there are real studies backing up the dangers of vaccines. That we should not simply trust people. Yet, you have not actually read or critically thought about these studies and instead choose to blindly trust someone else. Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #790 on: April 10, 2014, 11:31:12 AM »
So you found 1 lawsuit against A Dr practicing for 35+ years

redacted for space
I quoted the article not simply to show 1 lawsuit. Respond to it coherently or this will continue to be my reply.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-autism-doctor-eisenstein-may22,0,3826791.story

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #791 on: April 10, 2014, 11:39:36 AM »
YankyDoodle go threaten your poodle

Is this the comments that make you speechless thread?
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Offline jaywhy

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #792 on: April 10, 2014, 11:42:28 AM »
Too many people have the same mindset as you, some are smart enough to question while still taking the vaccines. Others unfortunately are not and are putting their lives and their acquaintances lives in danger. I hope you are of the former.

I read through as much of every single study that you presented as I had access to. This includes numerous full articles to which I responded. I gave my thoughts on the ones which I did not have access to. I think it is telling that you are basing your beliefs on an abstract or more precisely a website from someone who has no real credentials who simply quoted said study. Who is the real blowoff? You (and others) say that you are interested in the truth and that there are real studies backing up the dangers of vaccines. That we should not simply trust people. Yet, you have not actually read or critically thought about these studies and instead choose to blindly trust someone else. Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
Not sure how you came to that conclusion.
I'm not basing my beliefs off any abstracts. I take what I find and I bring it to a trusted and extremely well-trained medical professional
for analysis and explanation. 

For the record, I used to be heavily pro vaccination, attacking people for not vaccinating and accusing them of murder etc... Very similar to what has been going on at times in this thread.
But I admit that that opinion was out of ignorance and once it came time for me to make my own decision about my children, I started researching the other side's arguments and doing as much research as I can and spoke to a wide variety of doctors....
I think it behooves everybody here to do the same before they start mouthing off.

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #793 on: April 10, 2014, 11:43:10 AM »
YankyDoodle go threaten your poodle
Don't derail this thread with stupid comments please.

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #794 on: April 10, 2014, 11:44:42 AM »
I don't even feel that this conversation is about vaccines anymore. The idea is not to blame vaccines. The idea is just tk look into it. Like I said, I have all my vaccines and probably will give it to my children as well.
Its not even about conspiracy theories. About people making money while we suffer
I'm not trying to imply any of that. But I have noticed some weird things happen especially that advertisement (which I was right about).
From that perspective, it makes sense to look into something. Not for neurotic paranoid reasons. Just for common sense and for practical knowledge
Agree with having the right education at the right time.
Our children need to be protected from these diseases.  Vaccines are safe, overall.

However, the timing, the "rush" to fit into the nurses schedules in the Drs. office seems like an overload on an 8 week old child.
Rather that give EIGHT (the DTP as 3): Rotavirus, HIB, PCV, Polio, Diptheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Hepatitis B into an 8 pound human,
I've asked if we can bring in our child every 4 weeks for one or two shots at a time.
Who needs so many so young? Especially if the baby is nursing and lives in "low risk communities"!?? 

Link to 8 diseases innoculations for all USA newborns at Pediatician visit #1  default:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf

In summary: Yes, protect, but be smart about it... This is not something that's been medically recommended, but with common sense, there are not EIGHT foreign items being introduced intramuscularly this way.
Less likely to have anaphylactic shock or febrile seizures, high fevers, hospitalizations etc... that occur post-vaccinations.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #795 on: April 10, 2014, 11:45:20 AM »
Quote
More recently, that contrarian impulse has seen him create the Autism Recovery Clinic in Rolling Meadows. He treats autistic children with Lupron, an injectable drug sometimes used to chemically castrate sex offenders. Top endocrinologists and autism experts have dismissed the treatment as junk science.

Eisenstein is not board-certified in any of the specialties relevant to autism and the use of Lupron, including pediatrics, endocrinology, neurology and psychiatry.

But he is a master in the art of medical entrepreneurship. He has pitched vitamins, books and even a group health plan to his patients. His latest don't-miss-this deal: vitamin D3 and probiotic treatments to prevent swine flu -- "A $71 value, YOURS FOR ONLY $39."

Offline Menachem613

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Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #796 on: April 10, 2014, 11:46:19 AM »
Any evidence that the timing of vax is problematic?

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #797 on: April 10, 2014, 11:48:00 AM »
For lack of anything better to post go ahead make a fool out yourself

I bring the source for what i say

Specify which bogus accusation you want me to respond to
Why do you shoot from the hip
If you can respond to the accusations in the article the same way I responded to all of the notions in Shapiro's article that should be sufficient. No sources necessary, just logical coherent responses. Thank you.

Offline gavhaller

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #798 on: April 10, 2014, 11:50:39 AM »
Agree with having the right education at the right time.
Our children need to be protected from these diseases.  Vaccines are safe, overall.

However, the timing, the "rush" to fit into the nurses schedules in the Drs. office seems like an overload on an 8 week old child.
Rather that give EIGHT (the DTP as 3): Rotavirus, HIB, PCV, Polio, Diptheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Hepatitis B into an 8 pound human,
I've asked if we can bring in our child every 4 weeks for one or two shots at a time.
Who needs so many so young? Especially if the baby is nursing and lives in "low risk communities"!?? 

Link to 8 diseases innoculations for all USA newborns at Pediatician visit #1  default:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf

In summary: Yes, protect, but be smart about it... This is not something that's been medically recommended, but with common sense, there are not EIGHT foreign items being introduced intramuscularly this way.
Less likely to have anaphylactic shock or febrile seizures, high fevers, hospitalizations etc... that occur post-vaccinations.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Seriously, I tried.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #799 on: April 10, 2014, 11:53:33 AM »
Not sure how you came to that conclusion.
I'm not basing my beliefs off any abstracts. I take what I find and I bring it to a trusted and extremely well-trained medical professional
for analysis and explanation. 

For the record, I used to be heavily pro vaccination, attacking people for not vaccinating and accusing them of murder etc... Very similar to what has been going on at times in this thread.
But I admit that that opinion was out of ignorance and once it came time for me to make my own decision about my children, I started researching the other side's arguments and doing as much research as I can and spoke to a wide variety of doctors....
I think it behooves everybody here to do the same before they start mouthing off.
Why do you trust him specifically? Do you also consult an extremely well trained medical professional who does believe that vaccines are positive as well? wouldn't that give you a better knowledge of the situation?

You quoted the abstracts as if that was convincing evidence, as if you had read that study and determined it to be worth repeating. Why did you quote it if you had not read it?

Just out of curiosity what do you do for your children regarding vaccinations?