Vaccine Discussion Master Thread

[elit]

Are you or google aware of any instances of that sort of abuse?

Maybe we should have a rule that the court can decide if its a sincerely held belief. We do.

Sound like someone with knowledge of
 this area of law

[elit]

BH!! Hopefully no more of this

Do you realize that laws like these have major ramifications beyond this specific case. In general, rulings in the area of religious freedom are not moving in the right direction for orthodox Jews. So no matter how Pro vaccines you are ( which i am) laws like these are not good for the Jews

[thaber]

Do you realize that laws like these have major ramifications beyond this specific case. In general, rulings in the area of religious freedom are not moving in the right direction for orthodox Jews. So no matter how Pro vaccines you are ( which i am) laws like these are not good for the Jews

I realize that, and I should be more cautious. I do feel that if you don't like what schools offer then don't go to them. But I hear you.

[Achas Veachas]

Are you or google aware of any instances of that sort of abuse?

Maybe we should have a rule that the court can decide if its a sincerely held belief. We do.

Yes I know quite a few Frum families using religious exemptions while their religion does not forbid vaccines.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Are you or google aware of any instances of that sort of abuse?

I am not and have not checked with Google

Maybe we should have a rule that the court can decide if its a sincerely held belief. We do.

What if two nutcases started a religion and say for the first five years they did not deviate from the tenets of their religion. Would this meet the sincerely held belief test?

[elit]

I am not and have not checked with GoogleWhat if two nutcases started a religion and say for the first five years they did not deviate from the tenets of their religion. Would this meet the sincerely held belief test?

Don't believe so but I'm not an Expert

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Don't believe so but I'm not an Expert

The reason I asked is because Jim Jones comes to mind. I wonder if any of his religious beliefs would pass the test.

[henche]

Yes I know quite a few Frum families using religious exemptions while their religion does not forbid vaccines.

Shtei teshuvos b'davar.

Seems like CA also has a personal belief exception--are you sure they didn't have a personal nonreligious belief and were using that?

I can find you rabbonim who are anti-vax and will tell you it is assur, I'm sure. 

[henche]

The reason I asked is because Jim Jones comes to mind. I wonder if any of his religious beliefs would pass the test.

I'd assume so, at least for his followers.

Do you not think his followers sincerely believed it?

[Achas Veachas]

Shtei teshuvos b'davar.

Seems like CA also has a personal belief exception--are you sure they didn't have a personal nonreligious belief and were using that?

I can find you rabbonim who are anti-vax and will tell you it is assur, I'm sure. 

I saw the letter they sent, it said their religion didn't believe in medical interventions as all healing comes from God...

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I'd assume so, at least for his followers.

Do you not think his followers sincerely believed it?

Yes. This brings us back to my original statement. In the inner city on every corner is the church of this and the church of that started by someone and his brother. If the followers truly believe in that religion are certain religious exemptions extended to them?

[henche]

Yes. This brings us back to my original statement. In the inner city on every corner is the church of this and the church of that started by someone and his brother. If the followers truly believe in that religion are certain religious exemptions extended to them?

Yes, but I didn't think that bothered you. I thought you were bothered that people might invent a religion just to get arounf laws they don't like ("officer, my religion says I need to text and drive"). Which we have rules to prevent.

I do think every little religion should be protected. I think it is bad social policy to be locking people up for following their religion. I think such a law should have to be carefully thought through and targeted at a specific very important purpose. (Note current supreme cour precedent is usually not this protective).

[@Yehuda]

Is this just for the flu vaccine? Or a discussion of vaccines in general?

[Yehuda57]

Anyone in this thread knows how pro-vaccine I am, and that I believe not vaccinating your child is selfish and endangers society at large.

However, banning religious exemptions sets a powerful precedent, with a very clear slippery slope (I would usually laugh at slippery slope arguments, too) which I would be very much against. On the other hand, the question of what is considered a "valid religion," and to what extent do you allow religions to endanger society, are very tricky ones. Frankly, I don't know myself where I stand on this.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Yes, but I didn't think that bothered you. I thought you were bothered that people might invent a religion just to get arounf laws they don't like ("officer, my religion says I need to text and drive"). Which we have rules to prevent.

I do think every little religion should be protected. I think it is bad social policy to be locking people up for following their religion. I think such a law should have to be carefully thought through and targeted at a specific very important purpose. (Note current supreme cour precedent is usually not this protective).

I only used the invent a religion to make a point. If I was to use Judaism or Catholicism it would be harder to make an argument. I feel exemptions should not be made for religion.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Anyone in this thread knows how pro-vaccine I am, and that I believe not vaccinating your child is selfish and endangers society at large.

However, banning religious exemptions sets a powerful precedent, with a very clear slippery slope (I would usually laugh at slippery slope arguments, too) which I would be very much against. On the other hand, the question of what is considered a "valid religion," and to what extent do you allow religions to endanger society, are very tricky ones. Frankly, I don't know myself where I stand on this.

The way I look at the slippery slope is giving out exemptions. Where does it stop?

Remember the Jewish basketball team that was scheduled to play on the Sabbath? They threatened legal action if the game was not rescheduled. I respect their religious beliefs but playing the religion card in this case is just pure abuse.

[Yehuda57]

I only used the invent a religion to make a point. If I was to use Judaism or Catholicism it would be harder to make an argument. I feel exemptions should not be made for religion.

I want to agree with you. But then when the health dept decides that is illegal to circumcise a child unnecessarily, I sure as heck am going to want a religious exemption.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I want to agree with you. But then when the health dept decides that is illegal to circumcise a child unnecessarily, I sure as heck am going to want a religious exemption.

That is your right and I respect that. I would still be against giving one.

[jj1000]

I would still be against giving one.

Because you religion is as religious as Judaism. Makes sense

[Yehuda57]

That is your right and I respect that. I would still be against giving one.

So at what point does freedom of religion end? I'm asking seriously.