Vaccine Discussion Master Thread

[Yehuda57]

The anti vaxxers have stories of deaths, autism, and serious illness from vaccines.  Are they making it up?

This appears to me to be incorrect and therefore I question who is correct.

Ok I feel like I am repeating myself and just going around in circles.
Sorry I'm just confused.

They are either making it up, or are misattributing the cause of illnesses to vaccines which were caused by something else.

I think I have posted these here before, but they are great for a start on the very basic arguments.

https://www.gimletmedia.com/science-vs/vaccines-are-they-safe
https://www.gimletmedia.com/science-vs/rise-anti-vaxxers

Regarding autism:
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/health-and-medicine/infectious-diseases/influenza/v/vaccines-and-the-autism-myth-part-1
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/health-and-medicine/infectious-diseases/influenza/v/vaccines-and-the-autism-myth-part-2

If you bring a mother who says "my child became autistic 3 days after getting vaccinated" remember that is anecdotal, and can in no way prove there is a correlation, much less a causation. In the Science Vs shows I posted above, there are sources in the show notes of studies with hundreds of thousands of children. So these mother's claims, emotionally tugging and heartbreaking as they are, don't stand up to objective observation.

http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

[Boruch999]

I personally find it compelling.  One of my favorites is the mug that says "please don't confuse your google search with my medical degree." 
Nevertheless there seems to be a strong indication that they are sweeping things under the rug.

I don't see any indication, please elaborate.

When I asked my pro vax doctor if it's crazy to not give vaccines he said no it's not.  There are real issues.  Whether it's because of big pharma or some type of cherem in the medical community there appears to be some ignoring of certain reports.

  What reports?

The anti vaxxers have stories of deaths, autism, and serious illness from vaccines.  Are they making it up?

Maybe.  Either way, stories are called anecdotal evidence and are a poor basis for determining policy.  Also, correlation does not equal causation. Hypothetical example: most kids are given an MMR booster at 4.  Most autism diagnoses are made between 4 and 5 years old. 1 in 60 kids is diagnosed with autism.  Most kids diagnosed with autism will be diagnosed shortly after receiving their MMR booster.  This may lead parents to conclude that the MMR booster caused the autism but given the circumstances the cause could very well have been something else.

Rav Elyashiv is quoted as having said that he doesn't have ruach hakodesh and he can only pasken a shaila based on the information he was given.  If the information is faulty the psak will be too.  Is the medical community presenting accurate information to the rabbanim or is there some cover up?

  What basis do you have for suspecting a cover up?  What might motivate many tens of thousands of medical professionals the world over to participate in the cover up?

What I cannot discern for myself is whose מציאות is correct.  The way most doctors and rabbanim are presenting it is that there is no truth whatsoever to the anti vaxxers.  This appears to me to be incorrect and therefore I question who is correct.

  The anti vaxxers are completely irrational. They are also expert at obfuscating and manipulating facts. There is certainly no truth to their conclusions.  If you have a particular example a "truth" that doctors and rabbonim are denying, present it and we can discuss.

Ok I feel like I am repeating myself and just going around in circles.
Sorry I'm just confused.

 

[aygart]

What I cannot discern for myself is whose מציאות is correct.  The way most doctors and rabbanim are presenting it is that there is no truth whatsoever to the anti vaxxers.  This appears to me to be incorrect and therefore I question who is correct.

Ok I feel like I am repeating myself and just going around in circles.
Sorry I'm just confused.

Read my conversation with an anti vaxxer earlier in this thread and it will become very clear

[mmgfarb]

I just feel the need to point out that doctors are not all knowing creatures with vast, complete, and totally correct encyclopedias of medical information stuck in their heads. Just because you have a medical degree, that doesn't mean you are an expert on all branches of medicine, the same way someone with a law degree isn't automatically an expert on all branches of law.

(The above statement is not intended as a stance on the vaccine issue.)

That's all, carry on.

[churnbabychurn]

You're right they don't mention autism but do mention other things.  https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#mmr

Yes you are right that many anti vaxxers argue how effective any vaccine really is but to me it seems like this is the main shaila.  Am I a mazik/rodef etc. If my motivation is to protect myself?
Rav Shternbuch wrote this whole long teshuva analyzing the different levels of sakana but it doesn't address this question.

Rav shterbuch absolutely does address this fully and completely.

[churnbabychurn]

I just feel the need to point out that doctors are not all knowing creatures with vast, complete, and totally correct encyclopedias of medical information stuck in their heads. Just because you have a medical degree, that doesn't mean you are an expert on all branches of medicine, the same way someone with a law degree isn't automatically an expert on all branches of law.

(The above statement is not intended as a stance on the vaccine issue.)

That's all, carry on.

Right,the parents of autistic children are the smart ones who " have done their research".

Just watch how agressive frum people are in searching for the best medical science has to offer when faced with serious illness. It's just ironic how bad midos can twist people into such stupidity.

[Definitions]

Read my conversation with an anti vaxxer earlier in this thread and it will become very clear

I was actually looking for it but couldn't find it. Around which page or reply # is it and with who?

I just feel the need to point out that doctors are not all knowing creatures with vast, complete, and totally correct encyclopedias of medical information stuck in their heads. Just because you have a medical degree, that doesn't mean you are an expert on all branches of medicine, the same way someone with a law degree isn't automatically an expert on all branches of law.

(The above statement is not intended as a stance on the vaccine issue.)

That's all, carry on.

I'm actually surprised you said that. That sounds like something I would say, then you'd come with a stick to knock some sense in my head

It's just ironic how bad midos can twist people into such stupidity.

I wouldn't put it as bad middos. It's more like they aren't faced with the illness right now and are scared to use something that they don't know enough about for a possible gain.
(Could be I'm talking about a different type of anti-vax than what you were referring to)

[chinagel]

I just realized; are @Yehuda57 and @churnbabychurn agreeing about something?

[Yehuda57]

I just realized; are @Yehuda57 and @churnbabychurn agreeing about something?

Who is the broken clock?

[chinagel]

Who is the broken clock?

According to ExGingi, CBC is really Lubavitch, so...

[thaber]

@chaimmayer We are going around in circles, and there is inherently a lot of circular logic here. But consider this, and this addresses @mmgfarb point as well. Of course doctors are not all knowing creatures, and of course if you don't have Ruach Hakodesh you can't know facts not presented. But we trust the vast body of doctors scientists, regulators and government agencies to make determinations on our behalf, due to the vast amount of data and evidence available to them.
Let's use GMO's as an example. There is no real science that they are unhealthy. It's something people have done naturally for thousands of years, and now it's being done scientifically, in a lab, with exacting results, which is admittedly scary. However, GMO's are enabling thousands of lives to be saved by having sturdier seeds in extreme third world countries, and so on.
If the government agencies that are allowing this to go on were mere puppets in the hands of industry, as the anti-GMO's claim, and they're really life threatening and dangerous, don't you think that there would have been some sort of mass epidemics across sub saharan africa? Shouldn't there be a stronger incidence of cancer in fast food workers becasue they spend so much time near microwaves? and so on and so on.
Halacha tells us that these governmental agencies have the authority of a Beis Din when it comes to enacting health and safety regulations, and they were talking about much less transparent governments than the USA. (Aruch Hashulchan, Rav Nosson Gestetner, et al). Not because they are all knowing, they aren't, and they admit that. But because they, to the best of current methodology, have determined these products to be safe. And that includes vaccines.
I could go on, and I've given up on farkoifte anti vaxxers. But what I tell people is this:

Kids are dying and getting really sick from measles. I don't know if you've known people who had polio as a child, but I do. When they survive with lungs intact, the rest of their life is still misery. Generally they didn't survive.
We tend to not be aware of how terrible some of these diseases are because they aren't common. But vaccinations have saved untold millions of lives. There were, and even possibly still are issues, but most have been addressed, and there is a ton of circular and quack science out there. It's not about Eastern vs western, I'm all for some alternative medicines. It's about responsible medicine. To blanketly and uncompromisingly not vaccinate is, in my opinion, totally irresponsible. You can slow down the schedule, etc. But it should be done with medical advice, and by all means, find a doctor who understands your perspective. But just like you wouldn't avoid cancer treatment because of your hergesh (I hope, some people would, and are rotzchim beyadeim mamash), this should be no different.
And when it comes to poskim, all the big rabbonim always said to follow conventional medical wisdom. That is our chiyuv hishtadlus. Even if there are some outliers, none will sign a paper that says not to vaccinate, (the psak you sent doesn't say that either), and that isn't normative halacha.
I said my piece, unwillingly. I wish you much siyata dishmya in your decision

[mmgfarb]

@chaimmayer We are going around in circles, and there is inherently a lot of circular logic here. But consider this, and this addresses @mmgfarb point as well. Of course doctors are not all knowing creatures, and of course if you don't have Ruach Hakodesh you can't know facts not presented. But we trust the vast body of doctors scientists, regulators and government agencies to make determinations on our behalf, due to the vast amount of data and evidence available to them.
Let's use GMO's as an example. There is no real science that they are unhealthy. It's something people have done naturally for thousands of years, and now it's being done scientifically, in a lb, with exacting results, which is admittedly scary. However, GMO's are enabling thousands of lives to be saved by having sturdier seeds in extreme third world countries, and so on.
If the government agencies that are allowing this to go on were mere puppets in the hands of industry, as the anti-GMO's claim, and they're really life threatening and dangerous, don't you think that there would have been some sort of mass epidemics across sub saharan africa? Shouldn't there be a stronger incidence of cancer in fast food workers becasue they spend so much time near microwaves? and so on and so on.
Halacha tells us that these governmental agencies have the authority of a Beis Din when it comes to enacting health and safety regulations, and they were talking about much less transparent governments than the USA. (Aruch Hashulchan, Rav Nosson Gestetner, et al). Not because they are all knowing, they aren't, and they admit that. But because they, to the best of current methodology, have determined these products to be safe. And that includes vaccines.
I could go on, and I've given up on farkoifte anti vaxxers. But what I tell people is this:

Kids are dying and getting really sick from measles. I don't know if you've known people who had polio as a child, but I do. When they survive with lungs intact, the rest of their life is still misery. Generally they didn't survive.
We tend to not be aware of how terrible some of these diseases are because they aren't common. But vaccinations have saved untold millions of lives. There were, and even possibly still are issues, but most have been addressed, and there is a ton of circular and quack science out there. It's not about Eastern vs western, I'm all for some alternative medicines. It's about responsible medicine. To blanketly and uncompromisingly not vaccinate is, in my opinion, totally irresponsible. You can slow down the schedule, etc. But it should be done with medical advice, and by all means, find a doctor who understands your perspective. But just like you wouldn't avoid cancer treatment because of your hergesh (I hope, some people would, and are rotzchim beyadeim mamash), this should be no different.
And when it comes to poskim, all the big rabbonim always said to follow conventional medical wisdom. That is our chiyuv hishtadlus. Even if there are some outliers, none will sign a paper that says not to vaccinate, (the psak you sent doesn't say that either), and that isn't normative halacha.
I said my piece, unwillingly. I wish you much siyata dishmya in your decision

Very well said, something which can't be said about most of this thread. I do think you misunderstood my point though. I wasn't commenting on modern conventional medicine as a whole and whether or not they are right in their decisions, that's a discussion for another time. I was merely commenting on the idea which many people have that anyone who is a doctor automatically knows what's going on in the medical world. Many, if not most, doctors aren't up on the latest research in branches of medicine which don't directly relate to whatever they actually practice. A good primary care physician or pediatirician should be up to date on the majority of things that come up because they are likely to see a much broader range of problems than specialists. Unfortunately, there are bad doctors just like there are bad professionals in every field and you can't and shouldn't take what someone says as gospel just because they happen to be wearing a lab coat with the letters M.D. on it. Again, I'm not commenting on vaccines, just medicine in general.

[S209]

@chaimmayer We are going around in circles, and there is inherently a lot of circular logic here. But consider this, and this addresses @mmgfarb point as well. Of course doctors are not all knowing creatures, and of course if you don't have Ruach Hakodesh you can't know facts not presented. But we trust the vast body of doctors scientists, regulators and government agencies to make determinations on our behalf, due to the vast amount of data and evidence available to them.
Let's use GMO's as an example. There is no real science that they are unhealthy. It's something people have done naturally for thousands of years, and now it's being done scientifically, in a lb, with exacting results, which is admittedly scary. However, GMO's are enabling thousands of lives to be saved by having sturdier seeds in extreme third world countries, and so on.
If the government agencies that are allowing this to go on were mere puppets in the hands of industry, as the anti-GMO's claim, and they're really life threatening and dangerous, don't you think that there would have been some sort of mass epidemics across sub saharan africa? Shouldn't there be a stronger incidence of cancer in fast food workers becasue they spend so much time near microwaves? and so on and so on.
Halacha tells us that these governmental agencies have the authority of a Beis Din when it comes to enacting health and safety regulations, and they were talking about much less transparent governments than the USA. (Aruch Hashulchan, Rav Nosson Gestetner, et al). Not because they are all knowing, they aren't, and they admit that. But because they, to the best of current methodology, have determined these products to be safe. And that includes vaccines.
I could go on, and I've given up on farkoifte anti vaxxers. But what I tell people is this:

Kids are dying and getting really sick from measles. I don't know if you've known people who had polio as a child, but I do. When they survive with lungs intact, the rest of their life is still misery. Generally they didn't survive.
We tend to not be aware of how terrible some of these diseases are because they aren't common. But vaccinations have saved untold millions of lives. There were, and even possibly still are issues, but most have been addressed, and there is a ton of circular and quack science out there. It's not about Eastern vs western, I'm all for some alternative medicines. It's about responsible medicine. To blanketly and uncompromisingly not vaccinate is, in my opinion, totally irresponsible. You can slow down the schedule, etc. But it should be done with medical advice, and by all means, find a doctor who understands your perspective. But just like you wouldn't avoid cancer treatment because of your hergesh (I hope, some people would, and are rotzchim beyadeim mamash), this should be no different.
And when it comes to poskim, all the big rabbonim always said to follow conventional medical wisdom. That is our chiyuv hishtadlus. Even if there are some outliers, none will sign a paper that says not to vaccinate, (the psak you sent doesn't say that either), and that isn't normative halacha.
I said my piece, unwillingly. I wish you much siyata dishmya in your decision

I vax and I think antivaxxers ares mostly nuts.

But from a Daas Torah perspective, R’ Shmuel kamenetsky and R‘ Malkiel  Kotler, two of the leading gedolei poskim verabbanim in America, are both vehemently antivax. And the central Agudah/Moetzes has never put out anything pro vaccination publicly. Just saying.

[thaber]

I vax and I think antivaxxers ares mostly nuts.

But from a Daas Torah perspective, R’ Shmuel kamenetsky and R‘ Malkiel  Kotler, two of the leading gedolei poskim verabbanim in America, are both vehemently antivax. And the central Agudah/Moetzes has never put out anything pro vaccination publicly. Just saying.

There is nothing in writing from either advising people to not vaccinate. I love and respect both of them beyond words and have engaged in personal conversation with both (before the vaccine issue). From what I know of them neither would be 'afraid' to sign something that says that if they felt that way. [The letter signed, addressed to schools, says to respect people's personal decisions, and there is a basis basis to that decision, which is very very different than saying "Do not vaccinate your children".].
All that tells me that they aren't paskening for the rabbim. Their personal opinion is their personal opinion, but they themselves don't consider it to be ראוי להפצה even if they are 'vehement anti-vaxxers'.

Regarding the Agudah, they haven't issued a pro chemo for cancer patients statement either. They aren't a medical advisory committee.

[S209]

There is nothing in writing from either advising people to not vaccinate. I love and respect both of them beyond words and have engaged in personal conversation with both (before the vaccine issue). From what I know of them neither would be 'afraid' to sign something that says that if they felt that way. [The letter signed, addressed to schools, says to respect people's personal decisions, and there is a basis basis to that decision, which is very very different than saying "Do not vaccinate your children".].
All that tells me that they aren't paskening for the rabbim. Their personal opinion is their personal opinion, but they themselves don't consider it to be ראוי להפצה even if they are 'vehement anti-vaxxers'.

Regarding the Agudah, they haven't issued a pro chemo for cancer patients statement either. They aren't a medical advisory committee.

About the Agudah, come on, this is a contemporary issue, they would have spoken up of they didn’t have something/one holding them back.

About R’ Shmuel and R’ Malkiel, first of all saying to respect others’ opinions and allow unvaccinated children to be in school and in contact with other kids puts them in danger, which is completely not right, unless you believe it’s shtusim. Second, I have seen firsthand multiple times people ask R’ Shmuel if they should vax and he said something to the tune of “Chas Vesholom”.

[S209]

Mind you, I don’t think they should be allowed in school. Live your life, but don’t endanger mine. My wife is expecting and was teaching in a school that at first allowed them to remain, she said she’s not coming back until they’re not allowed in school, as measles is very dangerous for a pregnant woman. They subsequently changed their policy and she rpcontinued teaching.

[mmgfarb]

Mind you, I don’t think they should be allowed in school. Live your life, but don’t endanger mine. My wife is expecting and was teaching in a school that at first allowed them to remain, she said she’s not coming back until they’re not allowed in school, as measles is very dangerous for a pregnant woman. They subsequently changed their policy and she rpcontinued teaching.

Did she stay home for two weeks after?

[S209]

Did she stay home for two weeks after?

No. Why would she?

[mmgfarb]

No. Why would she?

Because the incubation period for measles is  10-14 days.

[S209]

Because the incubation period for measles is  10-14 days.

But the unvaxxed kids are gone