Vaccine Discussion Master Thread

[Achas Veachas]

Some hospitals require employees to get shots and even provide it for them. A hospital is there to TRY and make money, so I do not see the point in spending money on vaccines if they do not truly find them effective. I think the cost provides them with the benefit that they know it will keep their patients from acquiring it from the staff (which they will have to pay out of pocket because it is hospital acquired).

Reminds me of this xkcd:

[AsherO]

Reminds me of this xkcd:

Like!

[Barryg]

actually hospitals get funding for giving them(and the staff are usually required to get them on their own accord),
no one said that they don't work, only that they have adverse retractions, and even that the risks out-way the benefits,
and most of all they don't have an opinion, rather they go by the book!
..........DO YOUR RESEARCH................ 

How is it possible to do research when people like you discredit all reputable sources as not being truthful and champion every conspiracy nut/ activist out there?

No-one said that the research would be easy. On the one side we have conspiracy nut activist quacks, and on the other side we have media, hype, $, and ppl that fire others, yes, experienced nurses have been fired!  If the research was so easy, this thread wouldn't be 18 pages long, so far. The first side that I mentioned, as far as I can tell, doesn't just bash sight unseen, rather they usually quote medical studies and explain all angles. Ironically, I found that the mainstream media and the MD's see to discredit the others and just put them down and bash them. (I may have the wrong sources, but please point me in the right direction if you feel this is the case.)

[Dan]

If the research was so easy, this thread wouldn't be 18 pages long, so far.

That is the dumbest thing you've said yet.
There are also hundreds of pages from conspiracy theorists on 09/11, Newtown, the lunar landing, etc, etc.  That doesn't mean the quacks won't argue otherwise until they're blue in the face.

I trust my accountant to give me tax advice, I trust my gardener to give me landscaping advice, and I trust my Doctor to give me medical advice.  I don't pretend to know better by bringing "proofs" from a tiny handful of big money making quacks online over tens of thousands of highly educated doctors.  You can find proofs for anything online, it doesn't mean they right or safe.

[az]

How is it possible to do research when people like you discredit all reputable sources as not being truthful and champion every conspiracy nut/ activist out there?

when did i do that and even you can have your own opinion

[az]

That is the dumbest thing you've said yet.
There are also hundreds of pages from conspiracy theorists on 09/11, Newtown, the lunar landing, etc, etc.  That doesn't mean the quacks won't argue otherwise until they're blue in the face.

I trust my accountant to give me tax advice, I trust my gardener to give me landscaping advice, and I trust my Doctor to give me medical advice.  I don't pretend to know better by bringing "proofs" from a tiny handful of big money making quacks online over tens of thousands of highly educated doctors.  You can find proofs for anything online, it doesn't mean they right or safe.

you never did other research or asked a 2nd opinion?? you must love your garden  ,
i am sure if you did look into it you will find  things  that aren't being done to your benefit and can be improved ,
and even if your fine with it, some people have higher standards when it comes to medical advice than landscaping advice,
and do you know that they are making "big money"?and on what?
and bthw what do you think the "quacks" are Quacking about anyway, do you know there main message is? (hint: not that vaccines don't work)

[Achas Veachas]

you never did other research or asked a 2nd opinion?? you must love your garden  ,
i am sure if you did look into it you will find  things  that aren't being done to your benefit and can be improved ,
and even if your fine with it, some people have higher standards when it comes to medical advice than landscaping advice,

I'm all for second opinions, as long as you get them from another gardener, not from a shoemaker...

[az]

I'm all for second opinions, as long as you get them from another gardener, not from a shoemaker...

read the next line  and also the hole thing

[Achas Veachas]

read the next line  and also the hole thing

Both have been discussed ad nauseam...

[az]

Both have been discussed ad nauseam...

??

[Barryg]

That is the dumbest thing you've said yet.
There are also hundreds of pages from conspiracy theorists on 09/11, Newtown, the lunar landing, etc, etc.  That doesn't mean the quacks won't argue otherwise until they're blue in the face.

I trust my accountant to give me tax advice, I trust my gardener to give me landscaping advice, and I trust my Doctor to give me medical advice.  I don't pretend to know better by bringing "proofs" from a tiny handful of big money making quacks online over tens of thousands of highly educated doctors.  You can find proofs for anything online, it doesn't mean they right or safe.

If you hear something from another source you can always ask your trusted professional. I have no experience in landscaping and can't comment on it. I have asked Dr.'s many questions, for example, should I take fish oil? The doctor never advised, but agreed that it was a good idea. Similarly, I have asked my accountant (not in an attacking way) "What if we try this?" or "Doesn't this also qualify?" Then he looked into it and decided. Many times he agreed, and there were times that I wasn't fully satisfied with the answer as well.
With the flu vaccine specifically, we can pretty much guess what the doctor would advise (although, you never know, it's not 100% of MD's vs. 0%), but if (not in an attacking way) I ask and am not satisfied with answer, then I know that it's not so simple. The conspiracy theory part of it isn't the focus, and to me it is somewhat irrelevant as  09/11, Newtown, the lunar landing, etc, etc. won't necessarily have an effect on the way that I live my daily life. Health, on the other hand, is important. The question here is the pros and cons of getting a shot and that's what the discussion with the doctor is for.
I would ask, What percentage of flu's will the vaccine help with? Is the flu dangerous for me/my kids at our age and health? Are there any reasons that I shouldn't get vaccine?  Is there mercury in it? Are there any side effects or long term risks that I should know about? Is there anything else that I can do to protect from flu (with or without vaccine)? (It is difficult to ask the above Q's without attacking doctor, one would have to be creative.)

[Dan]

[Achas Veachas]

Correlation doesn't imply causation. could just be because people started taking their vitamin D

[az]

whats there time table and dates?
 check this out: http://drtenpenny.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Decline-of-infectious-disease.pdf

[Barryg]

Surprised to see so many zero's and low numbers. 0 reported cases would include the high percentage of the unvaccinated. http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2013/t0129_adult_vacc_rates.html
Again, I thought the discussion was focused on the flu vax and one of the reasons it makes for such a 2 sided Machlokes is that everyone knows the flu vax isn't anywhere close to 100% effective since they try to predict which strain of the disease will be around and ppl (more than zero, since I know of five this year) get the vaccine and still catch the flu.

[Barryg]

Correlation doesn't imply causation. could just be because people started taking their vitamin D

Would you like to write an article about how vitamin D helps reduce polio, diphtheria and smallpox cases? Will be hard to disprove and it may make you famous!

[az]

Surprised to see so many zero's and low numbers. 0 reported cases would include the high percentage of the unvaccinated. http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2013/t0129_adult_vacc_rates.html
Again, I thought the discussion was focused on the flu vax and one of the reasons it makes for such a 2 sided Machlokes is that everyone knows the flu vax isn't anywhere close to 100% effective since they try to predict which strain of the disease will be around and ppl (more than zero, since I know of five this year) get the vaccine and still catch the flu.

+1
http://drtenpenny.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Flu-shots-dont-protect-table.pdf

[YankyDoodle]

Barryg, it seems that you have some honest concerns about the flu vaccine. I understand that and respect your right to be thorough in understanding what goes into your body.

az, below is a chart of pertussis cases in Sweden between the years 1992 and 1998.



Sweden did not give the pertussis vaccine during the 1992-1995 years. Due to the epidemic they began giving it again in 1996. By 1998 one can easily see the effectiveness of the vaccine. You can make charts say whatever you want them to say, the question is who are you going to believe the entire scientific community or a small number of (generally medically uneducated) conspiracy theorists?
For the entire scientific article (not random graphs with little or no explanation) http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=84

[YankyDoodle]

@ az @ Barryg Do you guys use talk on cell phones? Eat food cooked in pots and pans made of titanium, aluminum, silicone finish, anti stick (anything other than wrought iron)?

Do you guys eat processed foods? Things with trans fat? Saturated fat? Food coloring? Preservatives?

The amount of "bad stuff" going into your body due to vaccines is so small and the good that is caused is so great comparatively that if the answer to any of the aforementioned questions is yes, this conversation should effectively be over.

[Achas Veachas]

Would you like to write an article about how vitamin D helps reduce polio, diphtheria and smallpox cases? Will be hard to disprove and it may make you famous!

No I'd rather write an article on the effectiveness of Homeopathic remedies and healing crystals, those are even harder to disprove and evidently make you quite rich and famous....