Topic Wiki

The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
115 (37.5%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
187 (60.9%)

Total Members Voted: 306

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 272016 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #390 on: November 14, 2013, 01:07:08 PM »
Lol. Let's attribute every autism case to getting vaccinated even though theres not a single legitimate study showing a correlation.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #391 on: November 14, 2013, 01:10:37 PM »
This where I bow out of this thread.

I've said what I had to say and hopefully I've made my point. Based on the PM's I've received, at least some people are listening.

Thanks to Dan and YankyDoodle for spurring me to further my own research.

Accusations of murder, I'm talking to you CBC, don't help anyone and make your arguments look weak.

You want to have an honest discussion, go do your own research and back it up with facts and sources.

People who have legitimate questions are welcome to PM me.

ETA:
I just received a phone call from someone asking me to continue posting here. So in the spirit of honest debate, I will.
Let's try to keep emotions and flaming under control.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 02:13:36 PM by jaywhy »

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #392 on: November 14, 2013, 01:23:35 PM »
This where I bow out of this thread.

I've said what I had to say and hopefully I've made my point. Based on the PM's I've received, at least some people are listening.

Thanks to Dan and YankyDoodle for spurring me to further my own research.

Accusations of murder, I'm talking to you CBC, don't help anyone and make your arguments look weak.

You want to have an honest discussion, go do your own research and back it up with facts and sources.

People who have legitimate questions are welcome to PM me.
Facts are that Pertussis was all but eradicated thanks to the Vaccine, recently, parents of children with autism are on some kind of witch hunt and have mislead many in the frum community to stop immunizing their children. This has directly led to renewed, unprecedented outbreaks of pertussis that has killed some innocent frum babies.
These are all facts.
I think it is wrong and immoral to convince others to go against conventional medical advice that has been proven to save thousands of lives.
I am not at all insensitive to parents who nebach have children with autism rc"l, (though it may come across this way.) I do not question the way Hashem controls the world and there is no excuse to create risk to other peoples children.

I have had a personal conversation with a husband of a non jewish author of a militant anti vaccination book, he admitted that this was her way of dealing with an autistic child, ie blame someone....

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #393 on: November 14, 2013, 02:05:58 PM »
Lol. Let's attribute every autism case to getting vaccinated even though theres not a single legitimate study showing a correlation.
See my above post about studies being manipulated.
Obviously, I'm not going to attribute every case of autism to vaccines but the shocking rise in autism begs an answer.
1 in 10,000 in 1980 to 1 in 88 in 2008. Something must be causing it.
http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/how-common-is-autism

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #394 on: November 14, 2013, 02:10:11 PM »
Facts are that Pertussis was all but eradicated thanks to the Vaccine, recently, parents of children with autism are on some kind of witch hunt and have mislead many in the frum community to stop immunizing their children. This has directly led to renewed, unprecedented outbreaks of pertussis that has killed some innocent frum babies.
These are all facts.
I think it is wrong and immoral to convince others to go against conventional medical advice that has been proven to save thousands of lives.
I am not at all insensitive to parents who nebach have children with autism rc"l, (though it may come across this way.) I do not question the way Hashem controls the world and there is no excuse to create risk to other peoples children.

I have had a personal conversation with a husband of a non jewish author of a militant anti vaccination book, he admitted that this was her way of dealing with an autistic child, ie blame someone....
Please post references with every fact.
You can't extrapolate your conversation with one person to every parent of an autistic child. That simply makes no sense.

Offline Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #395 on: November 14, 2013, 02:31:09 PM »
Lol. Let's attribute every autism case to getting vaccinated even though theres not a single legitimate study showing a correlation.
You are 100% correct that there are no studies that show correlation. In addition to that, there are so many people that were fighting that fight that just backed down (which doesn't show much credibility to their case).
However:
1. AFAIK, There is no study that shows any link (including genetics) to autism, so it still can be a concern.
Lehavdil- off top of my head, if there is a pitcher that lost velocity in fastball, and there is no proof that it is an old injury (shoulder, for example), but there is no conclusion as to where the loss of velocity is coming from... Just because there proof that it was the elbow doesn't show that it's impossible...
2. There are other concerns besides autism. Example, getting the flu after flu vax, shingles after cp vax, ADD, ADHD, memory loss in future etc. where there is no proof one way or the other. There is, however, reason to research before giving a child 5 vaccines at once, or a flu shot-in-the-vein (or chicken pox vaccine). Injecting with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vaccine_ingredients should come with more limits than credit pulls...

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #396 on: November 14, 2013, 03:26:40 PM »
Please post references with every fact.
You can't extrapolate your conversation with one person to every parent of an autistic child. That simply makes no sense.
Do you disagree with the any of the facts that I posted?
Do you not agree that the vaccine all but eradicated pertussis in the 1940-1980's?
 It comes back whenever there is a "theory" that the vaccine causes harm. Babies then die.
You dont need me to post references, these facts are not even debated by the anti vaccine crowd. 

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #397 on: November 14, 2013, 03:29:44 PM »
You are 100% correct that there are no studies that show correlation. In addition to that, there are so many people that were fighting that fight that just backed down (which doesn't show much credibility to their case).
However:
1. AFAIK, There is no study that shows any link (including genetics) to autism, so it still can be a concern.
Lehavdil- off top of my head, if there is a pitcher that lost velocity in fastball, and there is no proof that it is an old injury (shoulder, for example), but there is no conclusion as to where the loss of velocity is coming from... Just because there proof that it was the elbow doesn't show that it's impossible...
2. There are other concerns besides autism. Example, getting the flu after flu vax, shingles after cp vax, ADD, ADHD, memory loss in future etc. where there is no proof one way or the other. There is, however, reason to research before giving a child 5 vaccines at once, or a flu shot-in-the-vein (or chicken pox vaccine). Injecting with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vaccine_ingredients should come with more limits than credit pulls...
Il Grant you that you are "concerned", but why is it so hard to weigh a small risk against a large risk and make a sane decision? !

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #398 on: November 14, 2013, 03:34:00 PM »
Do you disagree with the any of the facts that I posted?
Do you not agree that the vaccine all but eradicated pertussis in the 1940-1980's?
 It comes back whenever there is a "theory" that the vaccine causes harm. Babies then die.
You dont need me to post references, these facts are not even debated by the anti vaccine crowd.
If you can't post references for everything you say, I won't waste my time debating you.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #399 on: November 14, 2013, 03:34:54 PM »
@jaywhy @barryg

Show me one legitimate peer-reviewed and reproduced scientific study showing that the results of any of the major vaccines causes more harm than good (yes that is a subjective measure, but I'm willing to be flexible), or even harm within the same range as the good caused by vaccines and I will personally claw the tdap vaccine that was injected into my arm not more than 20 min ago out with my bare hands.

Seriously speaking you cannot scientifically blame these health conditions on vaccines any more than you can blame them on cell phones, extra radiation, preservatives in food products, poorer diets or any of 1000 other changes that have occurred in the last 10-50 years!

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #400 on: November 14, 2013, 04:15:12 PM »
Quote
If you can't post references for everything you say, I won't waste my time debating you.
Quote
Before vaccines, an average of 178,171 cases were reported in the U.S., with peaks reported every two to five years; more than 93% of reported cases occurred in children under 10 years of age. The actual incidence was likely much higher. After vaccinations were introduced in the 1940s, incidence fell dramatically to less than 1,000 by 1976. Incidence rates have increased since 1980. In 2012, rates in the United States reached a high of 41,880 people; this is the highest it has been since 1955 when numbers reached 62,786.[29]

Pertussis is the only vaccine-preventable disease that is associated with increasing deaths in the U.S. The number of deaths increased from four in 1996 to 17 in 2001, almost all of which were infants under one year.[30] In Canada, the number of pertussis infections has varied between 2,000 and 10,000 reported cases each year over the last ten years.[31]

Australia reports an average of 10,000 cases a year, but the number of cases has increased in recent years.[32] In the U.S. pertussis in adults has increased significantly since about 2004.[33]
Quote
However, before that point, criticism of the studies showing no connection and a few well-publicized anecdotal reports of permanent disability that were blamed on the DPT vaccine gave rise to anti-DPT movements in the 1970s.[49] The negative publicity and fear-mongering caused the immunization rate to fall in several countries, including Great Britain, Sweden, and Japan. In many cases, a dramatic increase in the incidence of pertussis followed.[50]
[/b]

Its wikipedia I know, but these are not disputed facts.

Offline thaber

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #401 on: November 14, 2013, 11:14:11 PM »
This article on vaccines and halacha got more hate mail than anything else I've ever written, I was shocked, but I realized that people feel strongly about things and don't necessarily let the facts or  independent research get in the way. I'm open to discussion, but it has to be relevant - most of the dissenters quoted studies that aren't relevant to the vaccines given today. http://www.torahlab.org/doitright/vaccines_in_halacha

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #402 on: November 14, 2013, 11:31:21 PM »
This article on vaccines and halacha got more hate mail than anything else I've ever written, I was shocked, but I realized that people feel strongly about things and don't necessarily let the facts or  independent research get in the way. I'm open to discussion, but it has to be relevant - most of the dissenters quoted studies that aren't relevant to the vaccines given today. http://www.torahlab.org/doitright/vaccines_in_halacha
nice article!
The problem in Lakewood is with a certain rebitzin who is a self proclaimed naturalist and is in the militant anti vaccine camp. Her husband is not inclined to disagree...........................

Offline Barryg

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Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
« Reply #403 on: November 15, 2013, 01:13:19 AM »
Il Grant you that you are "concerned", but why is it so hard to weigh a small risk against a large risk and make a sane decision? !
Who said small risk? https://docs.google.com/document/d/10A7cl0pmJ-fq58ZCTgT2ZRqs7snyo-kjhQgVGkVkS2I/mobilebasic?pli=1

Offline jj1000

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #404 on: November 15, 2013, 01:20:41 AM »
See my above post about studies being manipulated.
Obviously, I'm not going to attribute every case of autism to vaccines but the shocking rise in autism begs an answer.
1 in 10,000 in 1980 to 1 in 88 in 2008. Something must be causing it.
http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/how-common-is-autism
Vaccines not only cause autism they also turn kids gay! A scientist (who supports gay marriage) explains that vaccines cause homosexuality.

This would also explain the increase is homosexuality awareness and fight for equal rights. Clearly it is becoming more common because of vaccines.
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