Topic Wiki

The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
115 (37.5%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
187 (60.9%)

Total Members Voted: 305

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 314481 times)

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #560 on: March 04, 2014, 12:18:34 PM »
There aren't any risks.
Agreed but Henche was saying that there may be risks but the CDC wants to shield us from them so people would vaccinate anyways.

Offline Barryg

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #561 on: March 04, 2014, 12:21:23 PM »
There aren't any risks.
I don't believe the package insert for any vaccine would agree with your comment...
Autism isn't the only risk.


True, unlike the other side...
I've spoken to many on "the other side" that will say things to me, but wouldn't/don't say in public...

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #562 on: March 04, 2014, 12:23:51 PM »
Umm there are quite a few....

I've been on this thread since the beginning, I have yet to see one credible, reproducible study linking vaccines with autism. So just go ahead and link them, please.

That's unfair.

Even if there would be some increased risk of autism, it is possible that the health benefits would outweigh it anyway.  In which case, it would be very likely that the CDC would want to cover that up to make sure people do get the vaccines, and also would be consistent with Obama's kids being vaccinated (as if you know whether they are).
What's unfair? Yes, the health benefits would likely outweigh the risks if there were a link. However, I still don't believe the risk of the USA not trusting the CDC at all, if "the truth" got out there would be worth the risk of lying and covering it up. Secondly, as I mentioned it would have been discovered by some researcher somewhere and published. You don't honestly believe that everyone is in on the conspiracy, do you?

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #563 on: March 04, 2014, 12:26:02 PM »
There aren't any risks.
Dude, don't take this the wrong way but you gotta stop pulling stuff out of your @$$. You keep saying there are no risks to vaccines. There are risks to everything including vaccines. There are even serious risks. Pretending like there aren't is just feeding into the nutjobs beliefs that there is some grand conspiracy to create an autistic universe.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #564 on: March 04, 2014, 12:27:12 PM »
I've been on this thread since the beginning, I have yet to see one credible, reproducible study linking vaccines with autism. So just go ahead and link them, please.

You misunderstood me, there were quite a few "researchers with a shred of integrity left who would run an experiment to test whether there is a causative correlation between vaccines and autism", they all published their research and found no such causative correlation...

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #565 on: March 04, 2014, 12:28:37 PM »
You misunderstood me, there were quite a few "researchers with a shred of integrity left who would run an experiment to test whether there is a causative correlation between vaccines and autism", they all published their research and found no such causative correlation...

Thanks for clarifying, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Offline Barryg

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #566 on: March 04, 2014, 01:10:07 PM »
Thanks for clarifying, sorry for the misunderstanding.
Besides for being on the thread from the beginning, please also try and remember who is biased one way/the other way/ or neutral. This will prevent future misunderstandings. It will also be on the final exam...

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #567 on: March 04, 2014, 01:23:23 PM »
I've been on this thread since the beginning, I have yet to see one credible, reproducible study linking vaccines with autism. So just go ahead and link them, please.
Did you miss this?
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.msg630419#msg630419

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #568 on: March 04, 2014, 01:47:29 PM »
Dude, don't take this the wrong way but you gotta stop pulling stuff out of your @$$. You keep saying there are no risks to vaccines. There are risks to everything including vaccines. There are even serious risks. Pretending like there aren't is just feeding into the nutjobs beliefs that there is some grand conspiracy to create an autistic universe.
Dude, Side affects like a sore arm and mild fever are not "risks."
The only severe "risks" to vaccines are severe allergic reactions that are extremely rare. I understand that you want to be reasonable by recognizing the "other side." Realize that they are kooks who usually have personal circumstances that need to blame on the evil doctors. There is no room for an intelligent discussion.

Offline henche

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #569 on: March 04, 2014, 02:33:32 PM »
Dude, Side affects like a sore arm and mild fever are not "risks."
The only severe "risks" to vaccines are severe allergic reactions that are extremely rare. I understand that you want to be reasonable by recognizing the "other side." Realize that they are kooks who usually have personal circumstances that need to blame on the evil doctors. There is no room for an intelligent discussion.

Why would you say there are no risks, if there are extremely rare severe risks?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #570 on: March 04, 2014, 02:35:24 PM »
Why would you say there are no risks, if there are extremely rare severe risks?
There are extremely rare allergic reactions to lots of things. They would not be considered vaccine risks. Just general life risks.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #571 on: March 04, 2014, 02:37:44 PM »
Dude, Side affects like a sore arm and mild fever are not "risks."
The only severe "risks" to vaccines are severe allergic reactions that are extremely rare. I understand that you want to be reasonable by recognizing the "other side." Realize that they are kooks who usually have personal circumstances that need to blame on the evil doctors. There is no room for an intelligent discussion.

Allergic reactions (such as anaphylactic shock) are not the only reactions possible from vaccines. There are others, and all are well documented as would be expected for side effects from medications that have been given on a wide scale for decades. Whatever the case, I will not do what others may try and pretend that vaccines are either the perfect cure nor the modern Satan. They are an excellent advance in medicine - by far the finest in terms of lives saved - in the 20th century.

Offline henche

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #572 on: March 04, 2014, 02:42:50 PM »
Allergic reactions (such as anaphylactic shock) are not the only reactions possible from vaccines. There are others, and all are well documented as would be expected for side effects from medications that have been given on a wide scale for decades. Whatever the case, I will not do what others may try and pretend that vaccines are either the perfect cure nor the modern Satan. They are an excellent advance in medicine - by far the finest in terms of lives saved - in the 20th century.

+1, precisely.


Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #573 on: March 04, 2014, 03:17:15 PM »
Did you miss this?
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.msg630419#msg630419

No I did not miss that. I looked through it then and again now.

1) You quoted 11 articles, that I must assume you did not actually read through. Either you found them linked on some website or you did a Google search or the like. Regardless, you present them so I will respond.

2) The last 4 either have no mention of vaccines or are not studies and are simply speculation.

3) 5 of the articles are referring specifically to thimerosal and Hg which have not been used in childhood vaccines in over a decade now. I cannot view any of these because I do not have access to them. They all seem to be trying to prove correlation and not causation. Regardless, they aren't used now so we'll move on.

4) There are 2 studies on vaccines within the last decade. One claims a correlation with Aluminum in the vaccines (http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic%202011.pdf). The study is decent but not compelling. It makes assumptions such as "we calculated the cumulative amount of Al administered from all vaccines that children receive", they argue that since in a specific disease (macrophagic myofasciitis) the Al from vaccine remains for months to years, therefore it is reasonable to assume that is the case for all vaccines. This is not a reasonable assumption to make without further evidence and calls the entire study into question. They also argue that the strength of the correlation is enough to prove causation. That is just not true, especially in light of their poor study design. Finally for the icing, at the very end it says that the study was sponsored by Neurodyn corporation. Neurodyn's co-founder is Christopher Shaw, the author of the article. From what I can gather, his company is working on alternative options to vaccines... Conflict of interest much?

The last article you quoted (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535) I also cannot access. All I can see is the abstract and it is not an experiment rather a study attempting to prove correlation. This is done through regression statistics accounting for a couple of factors (income, ethnicity). These types of studies are notorious for being able to be manipulated, however I will reserve judgement until a link can be provided that allows full access to the article.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #574 on: March 05, 2014, 12:30:16 PM »
No I did not miss that. I looked through it then and again now.

1) You quoted 11 articles, that I must assume you did not actually read through. Either you found them linked on some website or you did a Google search or the like. Regardless, you present them so I will respond.

2) The last 4 either have no mention of vaccines or are not studies and are simply speculation.

3) 5 of the articles are referring specifically to thimerosal and Hg which have not been used in childhood vaccines in over a decade now. I cannot view any of these because I do not have access to them. They all seem to be trying to prove correlation and not causation. Regardless, they aren't used now so we'll move on.

4) There are 2 studies on vaccines within the last decade. One claims a correlation with Aluminum in the vaccines (http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic%202011.pdf). The study is decent but not compelling. It makes assumptions such as "we calculated the cumulative amount of Al administered from all vaccines that children receive", they argue that since in a specific disease (macrophagic myofasciitis) the Al from vaccine remains for months to years, therefore it is reasonable to assume that is the case for all vaccines. This is not a reasonable assumption to make without further evidence and calls the entire study into question. They also argue that the strength of the correlation is enough to prove causation. That is just not true, especially in light of their poor study design. Finally for the icing, at the very end it says that the study was sponsored by Neurodyn corporation. Neurodyn's co-founder is Christopher Shaw, the author of the article. From what I can gather, his company is working on alternative options to vaccines... Conflict of interest much?

The last article you quoted (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535) I also cannot access. All I can see is the abstract and it is not an experiment rather a study attempting to prove correlation. This is done through regression statistics accounting for a couple of factors (income, ethnicity). These types of studies are notorious for being able to be manipulated, however I will reserve judgement until a link can be provided that allows full access to the article.
This is not a comment on vaccines per se, just on the underlying logic you appear to be employing. You're making it sound like the bar for a 'link' to be taken seriously is that you need to prove causation. Even correlation is enough to begin a discussion of weighing benefits and risks. Correlation implies a potential risk, which should still be factored into the discussion, albeit with less weight than causation would.

Offline henche

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #575 on: March 05, 2014, 12:34:32 PM »
This is not a comment on vaccines per se, just on the underlying logic you appear to be employing. You're making it sound like the bar for a 'link' to be taken seriously is that you need to prove causation. Even correlation is enough to begin a discussion of weighing benefits and risks. Correlation implies a potential risk, which should still be factored into the discussion, albeit with less weight than causation would.

Surely there must be more than just correlation.


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #576 on: March 05, 2014, 12:52:45 PM »
Good stuff

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #577 on: March 05, 2014, 12:55:51 PM »
Surely there must be more than just correlation.


Like this one?

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #578 on: March 05, 2014, 01:02:12 PM »
Surely there must be more than just correlation.


I'm not sure if you're making an actual comment in response to mine, or simply taking the opportunity to post a funny pic.

Offline henche

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #579 on: March 05, 2014, 01:03:43 PM »
I'm not sure if you're making an actual comment in response to mine, or simply taking the opportunity to post a funny pic.

I'm saying that pure correlation should not lead to any conclusions at all. You should only even wonder about conclusions if there is also some theory.