Author Topic: Makey oviv, vomays  (Read 6567 times)

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8677
  • Total likes: 56
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Makey oviv, vomays
« on: June 13, 2010, 07:21:41 PM »

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8677
  • Total likes: 56
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2010, 07:26:27 PM »
My ultimate question is whether there is a kom lay meedeRabbe meenay, only meessa with momoyn or makkes combined or also with 2 different meessoys.

 

Offline simcha112

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2010, 07:32:33 PM »
There is a G'mara in the first Perek of Yevamos that talks about a person that is Chayav skilah and Sereifa... He would get the harsher Meesah which would in turn patur you from the more lenient of the two. Please dont accept this as a psak (don't kill anyone without speaking to a competent Orthodox Rabbi first!)

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8677
  • Total likes: 56
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2010, 07:35:36 PM »
Let's say in a case where the son bemayzid (+hasro'o) hits his father (chaburo) in a place which shouldn't kill the father, but he still dies from the injury a day later.

Hitting (chabura) his father is chenek, and killing is hereg/sayef.

Standard hereg is a tougher meesa than chennek, except according r' shimon.

Would we say in this case if the meesa of killing his father is worse, that since the part that killed his father, was done beshoygayg, does he go to golus, and it paturs the hitting/chabura part?

Ps: the fact that the father dies later, doesn't place it in a chronological later phase, concerning the punishment.
The sons act was one, and one act only that happened at one and the same moment. 

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8677
  • Total likes: 56
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2010, 07:38:17 PM »
Thanks simcha, do you have a precise location of what you are saying?

Is he patur of the easier one (kom lay miderabbe...) Or just because he can only be killed ones,  that he gets the more severe one?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 07:42:18 PM by SuperFlyer »

Offline Charles The Govenor

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 864
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2010, 08:04:38 PM »
1.You could say that It's a maaseh esah so he goes too galus

2.He had in mind too hit his father and give his father a chuburah and that is what he was intending to do and that injury should not have caused his death so it was a freak think so he is chyav meesah. I hold of the second terutz.
star alliance

Offline ChAiM'l

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 1819
  • Total likes: 32
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 08:08:40 PM »
Ok, I claim mizrach wall in the new "DD" Beis Hamedrash....  ;D

Offline simcha112

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2010, 08:19:47 PM »
SF He IS patur on the lighter one because of the Din of Kon Ley... I will have to check later for a precise location.
All D Best

Offline Avid Reader

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 4018
  • Total likes: 7
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
  • Programs: Starwood Gold, Accor Gold, Hilton Gold, Hertz Five Star Gold, Marriott Silver, National Executive
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2010, 08:20:37 PM »
Ok, I claim mizrach wall in the new "DD" Beis Hamedrash....  ;D

Super will be the Rosh Yeshiva (together with nunu...)

Offline Charles The Govenor

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 864
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2010, 09:00:52 PM »
On the lighter punishment????!!!!?????????
star alliance

Offline YOSEF

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Posts: 2176
  • Total likes: 18
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2010, 11:39:23 PM »
Thanks simcha, do you have a precise location of what you are saying?

Is he patur of the easier one (kom lay miderabbe...) Or just because he can only be killed ones,  that he gets the more severe one?

SF He IS patur on the lighter one because of the Din of Kon Ley... I will have to check later for a precise location.
All D Best

I believe the bottom of bais amud bais maybe continuing to gimmel amud alef in Yevamos

Offline Charles The Govenor

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 864
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2010, 11:46:09 PM »
He is not pature he gets killed by bias din.
star alliance

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8677
  • Total likes: 56
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 01:07:14 AM »
According to whom, and why?

(To the governor)

Offline Chaikel

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 6776
  • Total likes: 59
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 20
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: LH SEN, SPG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Rav Kav Platinum
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 02:09:56 AM »
Bas cohen shezinsa gets serifa, even though eishes ish gets cheneck (i think)

anyway, how would you kill him/her twice?
Create professional looking itineraries.
Check out eliteitinerary.com

Offline hocker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Posts: 3403
  • Total likes: 41
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2010, 02:38:58 AM »
Let's say in a case where the son bemayzid (+hasro'o) hits his father (chaburo) in a place which shouldn't kill the father, but he still dies from the injury a day later.

Hitting (chabura) his father is chenek, and killing is hereg/sayef.

Standard hereg is a tougher meesa than chennek, except according r' shimon.

Would we say in this case if the meesa of killing his father is worse, that since the part that killed his father, was done beshoygayg, does he go to golus, and it paturs the hitting/chabura part?

Ps: the fact that the father dies later, doesn't place it in a chronological later phase, concerning the punishment.
The sons act was one, and one act only that happened at one and the same moment. 
afaik one doesn`t go a golus if the person doesn`t die instantly.
Car Rentals in Israel - http://www.rechev.rentals/